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Author Topic: ELMO ST-180 MO Threading problem
Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 15, 2018 09:03 PM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My ELMO has not been threading correctly. So, after taking a look, I see that the film is not being placed into the Mag Sound Reader correctly, and if I push the small lever ( pictured below ) forward while in Thread mode --- the film loads well.

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In the above picture I am holding the guide forward a bit for a successful threading..

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Above is the Guide that needs to be a little forward

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the amount the guide goes forward may be controlled by this Brass roller --which is on a leveler that moves the Guide below. This roller is raised when the projector is put into the THREAD position.

I am thinking I may "fix the problem by putting a larger Brass roller on?

Or should I be looking elsewhere? Thanks for any help..

Chuck

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Chuck

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted September 15, 2018 11:46 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is DEFINITELY the roller controlling the guide position. If my memory is correct that roller is eccentric,to set the position of the guide. Try loosening the screw&turn itaround to see if it helps.
Be careful - the screw was tightened on the plastic guide end,which is so flimsy and could be easily cross-threaded if over tightened.

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 16, 2018 08:45 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You are right -- very fragile plastic arm. I loosened the screw, but the brass tube seems round, and didn't provide additional movement for the guide when turned.

maybe I should try to enlarge the tube with tape -- or replace with a larger tube ?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if there was an additional piece around the tube ( rubber - plastic ) that has broken-off?

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Chuck

Chuck

[ September 16, 2018, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Chuck Carson ]

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Chuck

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5308
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 16, 2018 10:08 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The brass roller is "bare" and is eccentric on its pin. The roller shown doesn't appear to be the correct one. It is designed to push down the long black assembly above the heads.
However, it doesn't control the black curved guide. This is the one which appears to need adjustment.
This comment is made after examining my ST-600, but I think it is the same as the ST-180

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Maurice

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 16, 2018 10:27 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
tHANKS FOR THE REPLY ---

This Brass roller is on an plastic arm ( 3rd Picture ) that moves the Guide shown in the second picture - left and right.

And the movement of the Guide is not enough to the Right to thread the film correctly. The comment that this is not the correct part may be true, but the tube there sure fits well -- just doesn't provide enough movement of the guide.

So I am thinking -- enlarge the tube or find a larger tube -- what do u think ?

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Chuck

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5308
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 16, 2018 11:06 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems that perhaps I was wrong in assuming that the two models were the same.
Sorry.

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Maurice

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 16, 2018 12:30 PM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am entertaining all thoughts and ideas --- thanks for the HELP !!!!!

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Chuck

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 657
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014


 - posted September 16, 2018 03:15 PM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Chuck,
I have this elmo in the ST180M flavor, not the optical, but i cannot imagine them different.
My observations on mine is: this lever is spring loaded and should rest down spring snug(ie. roller down so plastic arm is lifted) by default. It only moves when the light position is engaged(on the 180M). Even the F position does not move mine, only when i put it in lamp does it raise slightly to let the film through.
I would check into the spring mechanism!
Let us know please.

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--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted September 16, 2018 08:34 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another idea - try pinching a piece of foam pad (or something similar) between the brass guide and the sound pressure pad ass'y,to raise the guide just enough to make it work.

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5308
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 17, 2018 03:57 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been thinking since my last reply.
The mention of the small roller is clouding the issue here.
The Elmo only comes into operational mode when the lamp is switched on in the run position. There must be some linkage which retracts the curved guide.
With Chuck's projector in the lacing mode the curved guide is obviously not in the correct position.
Have a look at the linkage.

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Maurice

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Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 954
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted September 17, 2018 06:47 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought there was another part to this mechanism that clamps together and guides the film into the sound head, I doubt that elmo would put a brass roller there, it would be rubber at least so not to damage the film.

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 657
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014


 - posted September 17, 2018 06:55 AM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The brass roller is not a roller, per se. The film goes nowhere near the "roller". This so-called roller is at the top of the mechanism, and feels spring loaded as mentioned and sits tight against the top until the machine is put into 'lights' mode which in this case is lights/forward combo mode. This drops the mechanism aligning the bottom plastic guide so the film will go through. If this mechanism is tight or faulty, the film will bind here...
Sorry, i was in a rush yesterday(Sundays) and couldn't type more to help....
Chuck, I would concentrate on this area and get this working again. We may need a schematic to know exactly how it should operate to detect what is faulty. Maybe it needs some superlube inside to allow this motion engaged. Hope you can get it working.

I've never had the schematic manual for this machine, but I did upload my copy of the elmo user manual for this machine which may be of some use: http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/wareview.php?id=2043&category=2

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--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 17, 2018 10:37 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks to ALL --- Esp Nantawat Kittiwarakul !!!!!!!

The addition of some foam tape to the top of the sound Head -- where the brass roller sits -- seems to have fixed the problem!!!!!!!!!!

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The roller just needed a little lift to correctly position the guide below.

I have also noticed there seems to be a rectanglalar area in this position of the Sound Head which seems to have a hole --- ( I wonder if some type of spacer was there -- and I have lost it ????? ) Here's a pic of the area..

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and here's the tape I had here in the house -- which I used until I find something better -- it is 1/16 in thick plus I left the cover on -- which adds a little more maybe 2-3mm total

I did try two pieces, and that was too thick -- film film jammed in head..

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So, here is a pic of the Lacing for the Sound Head. When in Lacing (thread position ) the head and brass roller is raised which moves the levered film guide below forward to feed the film under the raised head.

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Chuck

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted September 17, 2018 08:05 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes,the best solution is the simplest ones. [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 521
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted September 18, 2018 01:57 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But sometimes the best solution is the correct solution.

This is not the best solution because the entire sound head assembly needs to go up a bit, not just the lever with the roller on it. The roller guide is normally pushed up by the sound head assembly as it opens to allow the film to clear the sound head pickups.

If you have to artificially pack up the roller with tape, not only does it look bad, it also means the gap at the sound head is insufficient and may be problematic with some soft films.

So we are left with the option of doing it the correct way, the way it was designed it to be done.

The main control knob has linkage going along the bottom of the machine and this linkage needs adjusting to raise the sound head more than it currently does when in the off position.

Access to this linkage is gained from underneath the machine where you will find a small removable panel. This panel also holds the swinging lamp cover in place.
Using a small torx tool you can now adjust the linkage length to increase the lift of the sound head and so also lift the roller lever higher.
The adjustment is very sensitive so do it carefully till it's just right and you can see the film tip move through the sound head as it should.
Chuck, there is no missing piece on the soundhead where the roller sits. Thats how they all are.

Try doing the above steps and it should be OK again. Let us know.

Dogtor Frankarnstein



[Wink] [Smile]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5308
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 18, 2018 02:22 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well done, Frank, for the clear information about the linkage adjustment.

--------------------
Maurice

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted September 18, 2018 09:03 AM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Didn't realize that it is possible to adjust the clearance of the pressure roller ass'y,hence the correct position of the threading guide.

Well,you learn something new everyday. [Wink]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 18, 2018 09:36 PM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you --- the panel is on the bottom, but isn't removed easily -- on my MO machine. There is a screw holding the panel behind the Optical Sound Lamp.

HOWEVER, it appears they gave us help with this adjustment --- there is a access hole in the bottom panel that allows access to this brass adjustment faster/screw.

I have attached some pic below --- Unfortunately I do not have any Torx drivers smaller than T6. ANd this would seem to be a T5 or T4 . See the picture -- I am wondering if this is a Torx -- wall of screw seems thin and I don't see any Torx shape , but I will try the Torx next

Thanks so much --- learning a lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[ September 19, 2018, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Chuck Carson ]

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Chuck

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 521
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted September 18, 2018 10:51 PM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Chuck

A T6 Torx key should do the job.
I have just checked this on my Elmo ST 600.

Dogtor Frankarnstein

[Smile] [Smile]

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 19, 2018 08:44 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank You Frank

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Chuck

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted September 19, 2018 09:41 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank You Frank

I have a Wiha T6 tool and it is not fitting inside the screw.

Went out and bought a new set of Star drivers and the T6 works in this new set made by Husky from Home Depot



Looks like I needed a new set of Torx Tools !!!! LOL

And Frank you are right ---- only a VERY small movement fixed the problem -- maybe .5 mm at most

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Chuck

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 657
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014


 - posted September 19, 2018 02:43 PM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting that Frank suggest the torx(star shaped). I have never used a torx on my elmos...only an allen key(hex shape).
Glad you got it going!
Allen Keys is what i have used btw...

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Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Chuck Carson
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Texas
Registered: Apr 2018


 - posted October 12, 2018 08:42 AM      Profile for Chuck Carson   Email Chuck Carson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Mathew --- I think you are correct... I got my mini Hex keys out, (already had a set -- LOL) and the 1.5mm fit perfect.

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Chuck

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 657
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014


 - posted October 12, 2018 09:47 AM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great!
Now following Frank's steps as adjusted here:
...Using a small allen(hex)key(1.5mm)... "you can now adjust the linkage length to increase the lift of the sound head and so also lift the roller lever higher.
The adjustment is very sensitive so do it carefully till it's just right and you can see the film tip move through the sound head as it should"...
Let us know how it goes. I am also curious on how it fixes!!

[ October 12, 2018, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Mathew James ]

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--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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