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» 8mm Forum   » 8mm films for sale/trade/wanted   » New Films can be purchased cheaper than some used! (Page 2)

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Author Topic: New Films can be purchased cheaper than some used!
Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2887
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted August 01, 2012 09:28 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Gian,
There isn't a Reel Image website, so Steve's releases are advertised via his magazine.
That old acetate stock seems never ending! It might seem acceptable for a short but I'd be unhappy if I bought a valuable full length feature that came on it.
I know the polyestar printing was suspended after the person who was doing the striping sadly died, but I know there was talk of then getting a suitable machine from somewhere. Hopefully they succeeded if you know that polyestar is again an option.

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Adrian Winchester

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010


 - posted August 01, 2012 09:30 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve Osborne of The Reel Image (937-296-9036) He is in Ohio

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted August 02, 2012 12:10 AM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I understand the mag striper from Derann was scraped. If true, what a shame. Steve Osborne contacted me about making a negative for him, but when I contacted the guy with the printer he had scraped everything. Pretty soon there won't be any equipment or film for that matter for anymore releases.

Does anyone have a plan or design for a mag striper?

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 12:56 AM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry, so pessimistic a view. Spare a thought for me, I just got started with hobby. [Frown]

Let's assume we get only non-striped prints in future. (a) How hard is it to sync picture and sound using some digital media? (b) Is optical sound totally out of question?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

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From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted August 02, 2012 04:17 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
To my way of thinking I would have no problem with a print on
acetate as opposed to a silent print on estar stock, in my mind
there's no contest.Why would I want to project a silent film with
a soundtrack from DVD, It would be simpler just to project the
DVD.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5420
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 02, 2012 07:51 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Akhsay, if it is full feature and you play 8mm on crystal sync projector, then there will be no problem to sync DVD sound with 8mm.

Optical sound is out of question. First and foremost it is less superior than magnetic. Second, it is mono. Third, we need to have own negative for optical prints (while magnetic can be done by reduction from 35mm negative or even positive) hence double the cost. Four, limit the buyer as not every collectors has optical projector capability.

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Winbert

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted August 02, 2012 08:50 AM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Pasquale!

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted August 02, 2012 09:30 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Winbert, not everyone has a stereo machine or in fact requires one and secondly,not everyone has sync facilities for projection
with dvd.It seems this hobby is slipping back to the days of the
synchrodec etc where projectors were played in tandem with
a reel to reel tape deck.What is wrong with striped acetate film?
it has lasted this far and will no doubt see us all off the planet.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2887
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted August 02, 2012 09:30 AM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think silent prints of sound films are an option because even demand for sound prints is very limited, so surely the demand for silent prints would be too low to cause any dealer to produce them. I expect the same applies to optical prints, although if anyone could produce them with decent sound, I'd buy them. The sound on my better optical prints certainly beats the sound quality that Derann could manage in their last few years.

I agree that it's a shame that Darann's striper (and presumably most of their other equipment for editing, slitting, etc) was scrapped but they said the striper was basically in poor, clogged up and worn out condition, so it would have been an enormous challenge for anyone to get it working again.

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Adrian Winchester

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted August 02, 2012 10:25 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Adrian, I remember Derek doing an article in Derann's
mag where he said that after a batch of the solution for stripe
had been used,the whole machine had to be thoroughly cleaned
down before anymore fresh solution was to be used.I often wonder
if using this stuff,it was a contributing factor to Dereks health, as
he did say removing it was the devils own job.When we talk of his
machine being "scrapped",do we actually know if it's still on the
premises,or been taken to the scrapyard?

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 10:38 AM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks everyone. Now, Is there a film stock that is manufactured striped? Is 'per-striped film stock" even a possibility?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted August 02, 2012 10:56 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think so, as the old Kodak pre striped went long ago.Unless
someone knows different,I think that any filmstock for feature
release,if estar is unable to be striped, would be back to acetate or
nothing.

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted August 02, 2012 11:01 AM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ashkay wrote-"Is there a film stock that is manufactured striped? Is 'per-striped film stock" even a possibility? "

There was a time when I could go to Kodak and pick up a can containing 2 rolls of pre-striped stock. This was back in the 1980's. I believe Kodak discontinued pre-stripe in late '90's.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 02, 2012 12:52 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Hi Winbert, not everyone has a stereo machine or in fact requires one and secondly,not everyone has sync facilities for projection with dvd.
Hi Hugh, when talking about mono vs stereo, I am referring to why optical print is out of question. It is nothing to do with people having stereo vs mono machine.

On synch issue is to answer Akhsay's question about how hard is to do this.

ps: in fact if ones install a DJ software where it has speed adjustment (+/-) there would be no need a projector with sync facility as long as you can catch up the speed through the software.

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Winbert

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 02:04 PM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since my ignorance is as transparent as ever, I will keep going. What is the cost benefit of a non-striped print over a striped print? In other words, will a non-striped 120 minutes feature cost significantly lesser than it being striped?

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 02, 2012 03:02 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Akhsay, pelase remember when you strip film it has to be both to make the focus equal between left and right.

You can imagine that to custom strip for 50' will cost around £4 (main track only) by EVT or will double for both track, and this is paste strip which is less superior than magnetic strip

Therefore:

200' = £12
400' = £24
600' = £36
1200' = £72

Now you can see how much is for stripping a full feature both track .... [Eek!]

--------------------
Winbert

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 04:01 PM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert, are those prices for both main and balance strips?

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5420
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 02, 2012 08:09 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You can imagine that to custom strip for 50' will cost around £4 (main track only)


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Winbert

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 08:25 PM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, Winbert. I should read more closely. With those numbers, it is easy to see that striping a feature length film is expensive. Once striped, sound still needs to be added.

Film projection seems to be more about the image than the sound (am I right?). If so, why stripe? I can suggest a naive solution.

1. Print your feature un-striped on 1200' reels.
2. A good projector plays 24 fps consistently for the entire feature. (am I right?) If true, it boils down to starting the sound on a computer at the right instant to achieve good sync. We are set for 1200' of film.
4. Repeat for next 1200' reel.
5. Most likely feature is complete in two reels.

We can use that DJ software Winbert mentioned too. There is something wrong with this logic, right? Please tell me what it is.

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Joe Balitzki
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 529
From: Charleston, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005


 - posted August 02, 2012 08:41 PM      Profile for Joe Balitzki   Email Joe Balitzki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone that pays a lot of money for a feature would expect the sound on the film even if it was optical. Any other methods of synchronization will be troublesome or beyond the knowledge of the average collector. The problem seems to be striping polyester instead of acetate as its more difficult to get the adhesion of the stripes onto the print. When Kodak ceased manufacturing striped print stock Derann had to figure out the formula for the adhesive as Kodak would not divulge it. This was in addition to making the equipment for striping prints. With all that is involved, we are lucky that a laboratory still does this. If they sold pre-striped film for sound cameras there would be quite a market for it. But sadly, perhaps not enough for them to do so. I am not surprised at the time it will take to make prints to order because its custom work. If its done well, its worth the wait.

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Movie Lovers Do It in the Dark

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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted August 02, 2012 09:30 PM      Profile for Akshay Nanjangud   Email Akshay Nanjangud   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, I want to only speak for myself here. If it costs 288 GBP to stripe two 1200' reels, am okay with taking the time and effort to learn how to sync sound with the projected film provided I don't need too much money to do this syncing.

Syncing externally also opens the possibility of watching all classic silent shorts and features with different soundtracks. Every screening could be different in some way then.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2887
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted August 02, 2012 09:58 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I presume the striping figures that Winbert quoted refer to what EVT charge for striping home movies, but striping can't be such a high proportion of the cost of features. £288 for a two hour film would be roughly about half the selling price, and that doesn't even include the cost of recording!

Akshay - although I think it's inconceivable that we will see silent releases of sound films, there's no reason why you can't ask the distributor of a release for the opportunity to buy an unstriped print. They may be willing to sell you one for a significantly lower price.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted August 03, 2012 10:27 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all, i'll just add a bit to this story as this seems quite a lively debate, living quite close to derann i would frequent the shop after work, most afternoons it was a hive of activity and alway's had the nail varnish remover smell, from what i remember there was a lot of machinery on the ground floor doing various jobs ,slitting , striping,putting sound on the films at high speed always that sound of mickey mouse in the background !!!!!.I actually made derek a slitting wheel for one of his machine's for which he returned the favour and i remember him being quite pleased with himself that they had found that the formula for the liquid paste was minus one element?. They left out the resin he said , don't know to this day who "they " refers to but was this the final ingredient to the paste stripe sticking or drying enough to put it succefully onto the film ? Maybe is my only conclusion. There was some sophisticated equipment in there,all gone when i collected my projector's just last year before it closed , as i said in a previous thread it could have been salvaged and stored to rise again like the pheonix out the ashes, how very sad.

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Joe Balitzki
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 529
From: Charleston, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005


 - posted August 03, 2012 06:39 PM      Profile for Joe Balitzki   Email Joe Balitzki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I seem to remember Kodak giving Derann the recipe minus that one ingredient and that Derek and his crew had to experiment to find out what it was. Now obviously, Kodak did this to protect their patents. But if I remember right, Derek was told that he could have the formula. Unfortunately when he got it, it was incomplete.

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Movie Lovers Do It in the Dark

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

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From: Bristol,RI, USA
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 - posted August 03, 2012 07:57 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve does not have a website. He does have a 24/7 phone 937-296-9036 . He is in Kittering , Ohio. His mom recently passed so he may not be available.

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