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Author Topic: Wanted: Any Stereo Trailer or Short
Martin Dew
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From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted March 08, 2017 05:08 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone have any trailer or short with good stereo twin-track mag audio? I don't mind if the picture is duff, I just want to check out a good recording on a new PJ, if anyone can part with a title.

Many thanks,
Martin

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted March 08, 2017 08:57 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Why not create your own recording Martin on a scrap film with two tracks. If it is a Stereo Eumig, you will be most impressed! [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Martin Dew
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From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted March 08, 2017 11:21 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm going to do my own trial recordings. I'm just waiting for the mike and stand to be sent by the seller - we missed it when I went to pick up the PJ. I'm also just interested to hear what commercially-made Super 8 films sound like. I might order one of the stereo trailers from Steve Osbourne in the US because CHC doesn't have anything in stereo currently, other than Pathe newsreels.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted March 08, 2017 04:13 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Chronic at times Martin. Acceptable at best.

The ones you do yourself will knock the socks off the rest on a decent pj.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Martin Dew
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 204
From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted March 09, 2017 06:40 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mmmm...interesting. I've ordered Star Trek Nemesis trailer from Osbourne. It's the only one he has, but I'll be interested to try it. I will have to learn how to do my own recordings over the coming weeks!

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted March 09, 2017 09:11 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Speak with Paul Adsett here on that one Martin.
He is the only self confessed member here that I know of,that has successfully managed to keep these machines in perfect lip sync apparently, for any period of time.

They are still a member of the a.c. drive chain family, just as an ST 1200 is or as many many other projectors are.
There is little accuracy in these drives for achieving lip sync whenever I ever tried, but no doubt Paul here will be able to enlighten you on just how he managed to achieve this over 600ft lengths of films.

200 foot was the very best I ever managed and that was by using digital recording equipment feeding the sound through to the projector, that allows the user to vary the tempo of the track by miniscule proportions very very accurately and without altering the pitch of the soundtrack.

The same can be said for Goko Stereo editor, though for entirely different reasons given the fact it has the all important and accurate D.C. drive for it to be theoretically possible.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Martin Dew
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From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted March 09, 2017 11:20 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great, I will certainly do that, Andrew. Thanks.

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John Clancy
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From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 10, 2017 03:35 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's not the best advice to give someone new to all this Andrew. Wild recordings on non-sync' projectors can give dead accurate results but in my experience the motors wear over time and eventually the speed starts to drift. I did a lot of very successful 'wild' re-recordings on my Chinon SS1200 many of which we screened at the BFCC over the years. However, to get the best results as easily as possible you need a sync' pulse capable projector. There are very few readily available though and the only common candidate in that regard is the Elmo GS1200. A PAL sync' pulse box plugged into the ESS port locks the projector in to 25fps making the whole process much easier. It is possible to build your own sync' box too. I do have the circuit diagram somewhere but can't think where just now.

Anyway, sync' pulse is the way to go young man.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Mark Mander
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From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
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 - posted March 10, 2017 04:14 AM      Profile for Mark Mander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I Agree with John on that, Paul probably uses NTSC discs which run just under the 24fps frame rate so although tricky can be done, PAL discs on a 938 no way!! It takes a lot of practice on the speed controls and for PAL you wouldnt have the speed range, Mark

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Martin Dew
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 204
From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted March 10, 2017 04:31 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen.

I suspect you're both right, and I have no illusions about it. I have cleaned the rubber drive discs on the 938 and removed the slight wow symptoms I was experiencing when I first got the unit, but I'm sure it would be very challenging to do any kind of acceptable sync.

My Super 8 collection only consists of cutdowns and abridged features too, so I don't presently have any material to experiment with. If any of you have any suggestions of material to use, though, please let me know.

What I'd like to do is seek out some well-recorded commercial stereo prints but, as Andrew says, the quality is usually unsatisfactory.

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Martin Davey
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From: Southampton UK
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted March 10, 2017 06:18 AM      Profile for Martin Davey   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Davey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Continuing Andrews theme, you could feed in some stereo music from CD or a clip of soundtrack from a DVD to gain an idea of how well it records, and hopefully it will sound pretty good. The level may have to be brought done a bit when using modern sources possibly. I find the quality of sound on commercial prints very disappointing myself, and often the more modern the film with its complex mix,the more 'bassy' and 'muffled' it becomes, rather than the simpler, cleaner recordings of older films. The commercial stereo tracks don't work in 'prologic' mode either as the processor (dolby matrix) requires two good, balanced tracks, with high fidelity signals to help separate the mono rear from the front 3 channels. But it is important to note that this cine world and its charms are more about older films running on old technology, rather than trying to compete with Blu Ray etc,
My own rule of any super 8 commercial film is if you can hear what the actors say without straining then its a good track!

[ March 10, 2017, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Martin Davey ]

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 10, 2017 08:08 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Try recording something down a leader then you'll get an idea of the potential. However, if you're getting 'wow' on your projector then I would say that's not going to be worth too much time. Getting a top-notch projector that will keep a constant speed today is not going to be an easy task which is why I would recommend a GS1200.

Genuine Dolby Stereo (aka Pro-Logic) only really works on Super 8 when the recording has been done on the machine it is being played back on. Very good re-recordings can be achieved from DVD but possibly better if you can get the laser disc. VHS is usually very good too but the tapes are falling apart in general now which causes bangs and wotnot on the soundtracks.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Martin Dew
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From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
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 - posted March 10, 2017 11:13 AM      Profile for Martin Dew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Martin and John. That's all excellent information.

Yes, you're quite right, of course. I have no intention of competing with Blu-ray. I have 11 channels of Parasound power amplifiers to do that for me. With Super 8 and 16mm film, I'm more interested in it as an anachronistic pursuit, creating the feel of 1970s and earlier cinema. I actually also love the full-bodied, mid-rangey mono sound of 16mm films, for example.

With that said, there was a spectacular demo at the BFCC in Ealing last year. They showed a clip from a Derann print of Supergirl. Having got back into this hobby again only recently, I had no idea Super 8 could sound that good. I asked Keith Wilton if he was live pulse-syncing to a DVD, but he told me he was actually just playing back re-recorded 2-channel stereo, straight off the main and balance stripes on a GS-1200. I thought it might be quite fun to get that kind of sound at home from film, but I think it might be a bit of an uphill struggle if not using one of the recommended PJs for the task, like the Elmo or Beaulieu.

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Martin Davey
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 - posted March 10, 2017 11:45 AM      Profile for Martin Davey   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Davey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to admit Martin that I like 16mm optical for the same reasons. It has a sort of 'cosy' sound, particularly with old Disney material.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 10, 2017 02:11 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
John, the SS1200 is a dc electronically controlled projector.
Of course you'd have a good deal of success attempting to "wild sync" one of these.

Anything driven from two rubber friction discs via a asynchronous motor, is by far a completely different scenario as I'm certain you are all too aware.
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the motor fitted to it or the wear encountered by using it.
It would be the same story from day one even on a brand new machine.

As for pulse sync, yes it is the quickest and preferred method of lip sync recording but without the Pedro boxes and motor controlling circuit boards for machines like the Bauer s and Beaulieu's of this world, I doubt I will ever get the opportunity to use this method.

I do ok by matching my reliable projected frame rate with my digital tempo flexible recording kit so it's not something I rely upon to obtain top notch recordings thankfully.

Pulse sync would be nice, but for me, I wouldn't be using a GS 1200 just to facilitate this, not ever.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
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 - posted March 10, 2017 03:49 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Mr. Clancy! [Smile] Nice to see you posting!
I saw and heard a re-recording of "Fantasia" at Mr. Wiltons place and I thought it was sync'd to the DVD as well. Nope.
It was the actual soundtrack re-recorded onto the magnetic stripes and then played back through an Elmo GS1200.
Sound was really fantastic. High fidelity I would say.
Some of the best pre-recorded sound I have heard from Derann was the "Gremlins" 2x 600ft and also "Lady and the Tramp" had nice sound as well. The later stripe, the infamous grey stripe which I have on my copy of "Grease" is good but not like those others. The early Derann is very nice.

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 11, 2017 03:54 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You do not appear to be correct there Andrew as the SS1200 now drifs when trying to synch a film to video. This is because it's worn out. I killed that fabulous projector by doing so many re-recordings that eventually it was too knackered to do them any longer. Kevo changed the recording capacitors in my first GS1200 and I was then able to finally re-record features, trailers and cut-downs on that using Keith Wilton's orginal solution for synch pulse. The components of this can be purchased for a few pounds and assembled with a soldering iron.

A few years ago a fellow collector knowing of my affection for the film Phantasm obtained the Piccolo 2x400ft for me. Unlike the Derann prints this longer version hasn't turned bright pink. However, the sound being in German meant it needed re-recording but I didn't fancy doing it wild as I had done in the past so set about creating a synch pulse master via Serif Movieplus video editing. That made the end process very easy but probably took longer given that you have to transfer the film locked in at 25fps in the first place to match the stereo video, DVD or laser disc transfer to the Super 8 cut downs. When I did the same with the Marketing 2x400ft of Rollerball I did it wild using the Chinon. That was the job that finished that projector off really.

I don't post here often any longer Alan but occasionally a subject comes up which people know very little or nothing about and I feel it's necessary to set the story straight. After almost 20 years there's not often much I can add but reiterate what has been discussed time and time again.

Now Martin, that screening at the BFCC was the original review print of Supergirl. Whilst Keith and I don't care much for the film it is a very good Super 8 print and Keith's kept it for that reason. We've shown the flying sequence a few times now. The same with Poltergeist - we've shown that sequence before. Last time we screened it the section went missing and after a few years of it being 'lost' I was offered another original Kempski print so I snapped it up in order that we'd have it for future conventions. As soon as I did that the original missing sequence from Keith's print turned up having been joined onto the wrong film in the Wilton archives. We still have a 16mm Technicolor sequence from Zulu missing for probably the same reasons right now, damn it! Anyway, we've done a lot of high end Super 8 demonstrations at the BFCC and really have taken the gauge too its limits. When I had the HTI conversion done to one of my GS1200s (by Bill Parsons) in 2004 that was the finishing touch. The original lamp was brighter than the replacement that went in a few years ago but regardless of this there is no other light source to match HTI for the ultimate in Super 8 projection. We've been using my projector for all but one convention since the lamp conversion and at a five of them we also used my THX Ultra sound system. Who can remember the T-Rex sequence from Jurassic Park actually shaking the floor of the big Victoria Hall when we screened that using sync' pulse with digital sound from DVD? And the time I blew out a rear cone during the opening of Master & Commander? And the screen... 24ft from end to end. Not all Super 8 prints can take that magnification of course but it does give you the opportunity to see just how good, or not, a 'Scope Super 8 release really is.

I have a smaller 7ft screen in my home cinema and a 10ft in the living room where I run most of the Super 8 screenings. I find it easier to gauge how good a print is on the ten foot screen whereas everything tends to look better than it really is on the seven foot. HTI tends to make the print quality of everything look better but with a standard GS1200 it's obvious some are too dense (Agfa film stock used on the 1990s Derann prints for example is not as good as the earlier Kodak in this regard) or do not have such good definition. Star Wars is an example of a print being too grainy. The earlier Star Wars Kodak stock prints are superior to those struck on Agfa where the blue tint and increased density spoiled an already not particularly impressive release. I have prints from each and I checked this by running reels from both last night.

Now to get back on topic - Martin, perhaps what you should do is keep a look out for a trailer which you can have a go at re-recording. Probably the best result I ever got on a trailer was for Batman & Robin which was issued by Derann. The film may be a bit of a stinker but the trailer is great and the stereo sound is great too. Synch doesn't matter so much on a trailer and you can get away with a bit of speed variation here and there if you have to. As with all re-recordings though a lot depends on how good the sound stripes are and sometimes the results can be very disappointing so always check down the leader first. I have a couple of features where on one or more reels I just can't get anything worthwhile on them so it's sync' pulse every time.

The best sounding original Derann release I have is Disney's Beauty & The Beast. That went back to the chaps to be re-recorded by the original owner and the end result was just like a GS1200 re-recording at home. Sadly the owner then emulsion scratched the opening so he got rid of it. It had only just been released at the time so I snapped it up from Gary Watson and Barry Attwood at CEC Films (Cinema Entertainment Company).

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 11, 2017 04:29 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
The fact your SS 1200 ONCE was able to record reasonably well synchronized was my point.

A Eumig S938 or ST1200 NEVER would, not even early on in life.
It's the very reasons why sync boxes were not or could not be made for asynchronous projectors.

The laws of science, deem it could NEVER work.

Your SS1200 now probably doesn't keep good time simply because of other reasons beyond the driven motor speed.
A sloppy drive belt for example due to stretch or wear.

You're also correct in saying that this is not revolutionary news here. This has been known and spoken about here since time began here John.

Your line on the Beauty And The Beast recording experiences says it all John and the very reason why I'd hopefully never ever need to use a projector that has an ability to do this.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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 - posted March 11, 2017 06:29 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You certainly seem to know everything there is to know Andrew. I won't bother in future.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 11, 2017 07:19 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know everything about everything John,not by any means, but I do know what I know. [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Mander
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Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 11, 2017 08:58 AM      Profile for Mark Mander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well there goes another forum member totally bewildered with the powers that be,it's the reason why so many members don't post on here these days, such a shame, Mark

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 11, 2017 09:49 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Who on earth are the powers that be Mark? [Confused]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Mander
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Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 11, 2017 11:13 AM      Profile for Mark Mander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That one you will have to work out for yourself Andrew, Mark

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 11, 2017 12:44 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Mark, you've lost me? [Confused]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Mander
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Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 11, 2017 01:59 PM      Profile for Mark Mander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Along with many others on here!!! I really shouldn't need to spell it out, Mark

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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