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Author Topic: Camera lightning
Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 11, 2010 10:31 AM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

With any daylight-color lamps, just pretend you are always 'outside' when using them.

Thus:
If you are shooting with tungsten-balanced film, put the camera on 'daylight'; if you are shooting daylight-balanced film, leave it on the 'daylight' setting as well.

What you may find once you shoot with daylight-balanced light inside is that any household lamps in the background will give a bit of a warm, reddish glow, depending on the strength of your main, daylight-balanced "shooting lamp."
House lamps are a bit "warmer" in general than even tungsten-balanced photo lamps.
This is not a bad thing; it gives texture and color to your shots.

If you shoot inside with daylight-balanced lighting, use daylight film to maintain the most sensitivity of the film stock.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Bart Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 228
From: Hackney, London
Registered: Feb 2007

- posted January 11, 2010 11:22 AM      Profile for Bart Smith   Author's Homepage   Email Bart Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
With any daylight-color lamps, just pretend you are always 'outside' when using them.

Thus:
If you are shooting with tungsten-balanced film, put the camera on 'daylight'; if you are shooting daylight-balanced film, leave it on the 'daylight' setting as well.
Claus:

If you are using daylight balanced film in a Super 8 camera, and you are using daylight colour-temperature lamps, you would need to set your camera to the 'tungsten' setting, as it is in this position that no filtration is in place.

If you set it to 'daylight' with film/lighting as above it would come out looking too orange, as there would be an 85 filter in place.

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www.bluecinetech.co.uk

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 11, 2010 11:27 AM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bart,

I KNEW I would get it mixed up!!!
Thanks for the correction; it's obviously been too long since I shot Super-8 [Big Grin]

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Bart Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 228
From: Hackney, London
Registered: Feb 2007

- posted January 11, 2010 11:38 AM      Profile for Bart Smith   Author's Homepage   Email Bart Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Confused?

You won't be after watching this weeks episode of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaNWYHmUvI

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www.bluecinetech.co.uk

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 11, 2010 06:08 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Daylight balanced films vs. Tungsten Balnaced films....

so which films are they?

I have 2 kind of films in my fridge now, they are Kodachrome K40 and Ektachrome 64T. Are they daylight or tungsten?

(I guess 64T means Tungsten though, but what about K40?)

Any super 8 films on daylight balanced?

rgds,

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Winbert

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Bart Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 228
From: Hackney, London
Registered: Feb 2007

- posted January 12, 2010 03:19 AM      Profile for Bart Smith   Author's Homepage   Email Bart Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

Nearly all colour Super 8 film cartridges made by 'major' manufacturers are/were tungsten balanced, including 64T and K40. There are exceptions to this, notably the long discontinued Ektachrome type G.

The only daylight balanced stocks that are manufactured these days are by relatively small scale operations such as Spectra and Wittner, both of whom load Kodak perforated Ektachrome 100D into Super 8 cartridges.

There is also Pro8mm, who in addition to loading 100D into cartridges as above also load various daylight and various tungsten balanced negative stocks.

Super 8 cameras were designed on the basis that you would be loading tungsten balanced film into them, hence the anomalous/counter-intuitive situation where when filming with a daylight balanced cart you need to make sure that the camera is set to tungsten.

The 'normal' state of a Super 8 camera is to have an 85 filter in the optical path, this corrects the light so that it becomes tungsten balanced.

Selecting tungsten on a Super 8 camera removes the 85 filter from the optical path.

Most (but not all) cameras will automatically switch out the 85 filter (regardless of how the switch is set) when you place a daylight cart in them, as there will be no filter notch, and the cart will press a small switch inside the film chamber which will be mechanically coupled to the 85 filter, pushing it out of the optical path.

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www.bluecinetech.co.uk

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 12, 2010 03:50 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can yo guys tell me what is the benefit of using daylight balanced films on daylight shooting or vice versa? knowing there is 85 filter to correct that if we need it.

(my plain question, why there should be two types of films)

rgds,

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Winbert

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006

- posted January 13, 2010 03:57 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
what is the benefit of using daylight balanced films on daylight shooting or vice versa
Any filter will have two effects:
  • It'll reduce the amount of light that reaches the film.
  • It'll reduce the achievable quality as no filter is perfect.
Hence it's best not to use any filter, but to use a film that is suited for your lightning-situation.
Jörg

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 13, 2010 10:57 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg and other who konw,

Can you link me with youtube or vimeo (or at least screens shot pictures)for a straight comparison between Tungsten vs Daylight balanced film at the same setting, same camera and same scene?

rgds

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Winbert

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Bart Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 228
From: Hackney, London
Registered: Feb 2007

- posted January 14, 2010 12:46 AM      Profile for Bart Smith   Author's Homepage   Email Bart Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Winbert,

Tiffen's website has quite a number of examples of the effect that different filters give.

I can't remember how to post images on this forum, so you will have to click the links:

http://www.tiffen.com/hi-res/85B-Compare.jpg

First example is of an 85B (similar enough to a Super 8 camera's 85 filter for our purposes) converting tungsten film to daylight balanced. The filter is an orange colour.

This is the sort of very blue results you might get if you were to use 64T outside in daylight without the 85 filter in place, e.g. set to 'tungsten'.

http://www.tiffen.com/hi-res/80A_Effects.jpg

Example 2 is an 80A filter, which works exactly the opposite way round, it converts daylight film to tungsten. It is a bluish colour.

If you were to shoot daylight film under tungsten light you would get an image which looks much too orange. You will probably have seen this many times in old stills photos (most 35mm camera film being daylight balanced) which have been shot indoors with household lighting.

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www.bluecinetech.co.uk

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 14, 2010 11:35 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Bart, thanks for the explanation.

Accidentally I just received my last 64T processed by Dwyane shoot with 85 and 85B filter. I will make another thread to show what is the different.

regards,

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Winbert

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 18, 2010 05:11 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is my review in using filter 85 and 85B during shooting with E64T.

Enjoy,

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Winbert

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 18, 2010 06:15 AM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll post example screens myself once I get my reels back from Dwayne [Smile] Also having the reel digitalized to DVD, so I'll have high-res screens and video [Smile]

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006

- posted January 18, 2010 07:23 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

when the e64t got released, someone at filmshooting.com made some tests in Italy on a cloudless summer-day:
* early morning (up to approx. 11:00): nearly no visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B
* noon (approx. 11:00 to 15:00): obvious visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B (85 was "too blueish", only the pictures taken with the 85B seemed to give correct colours)
* evening (approx. 15:00 to sunset): nearly no visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B
However I can't find that posting any more...
Differences were most likely caused by the amount of light and the sunlight's temperature (which changes during the day):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

Jörg

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Bart Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 228
From: Hackney, London
Registered: Feb 2007

- posted January 18, 2010 07:51 AM      Profile for Bart Smith   Author's Homepage   Email Bart Smith   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another point worth considering...

If you buy an el-cheapo 85 or 85b the manufacturing tolerances may not be that great, and they may not (in reality) be any different from each other.

So the best way to test it would be with 2 filters made by one of the reputable filter manufacturers, in order to give you a reliable reference point.

Not some ropey old piece of anything off ebay for example....

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www.bluecinetech.co.uk

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