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Author Topic: Elf and Eiki Projectors - Advice
Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 14, 2004 08:10 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can anyone please advise me or direct me to a web site that gives details of the various models I keep seeing these for sale but have no idea what the key differences are and which are the best models to go for or ones to avoid.

Can you help/?

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Tony

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted November 18, 2004 02:52 AM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony, I would like the answer too.
Sadly no response.
If you get the answer ealsewhere could you post here please.

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Regards,
David

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted November 18, 2004 07:35 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony, I have an Eiki NT1, if you need some information on it (and on the NT series as they're veri similar) I can provide you easily

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 20, 2004 09:51 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is a rough run down of the various models:

MS-850 from early 1960s. Two sprocket, forward only, tube amp

MS-860 (President in US) Three sprocket, forward, reverse, solid state

S-series first self threader, withdrawn due to poor performance

ST-series replacement for the S-series. First to use EJL 24 volt lamp, solid state, self thread, forward reverse. Toggle switches for forward reverse. Still used motor windings for amp power

RT-series (Royal in the US) rotary control, new transformer supplied both lamp (24 volt) and amp power. Heavy all metal machine (plastics started with later models)Early amps had large integrated circuits. Many many revisions on this model as it lasted a long time. New cam tank and cast metal pull down cam.

NT-series successor to the RT machine, black in color. Many minor engineering refinements

SL-series Eiki's first slot loader (to compete with Bell & Howell and Elmo). The machine was quickly replaced with the SL-II with many design improvements. Much better take-up arm clutch design from the earlier version that started with the MS-860.

SNT- Eiki's last design with the new "slim line" version of the NT but with many many changes. Larger sprockets, improved threading and even an electronic control model (ENT). Many more sensors on this machine (knows if there is film in the path and goes into reverse projection rather than rewind, etc). First time Eiki uses the SL style take up arm on a self threader.

SSL The new slim version of the SL projector. Again many engineering changes, larger sprockets, better film handling.

Then there are the various Xenon models. Those cross several lines. For example there are several versions of the EX-1500. Some have the small lens holder of the President and later ones have the newer gate and lens holder of the ST series.

Remember we're taking about various products made over a 40 year period so by and large the later machines (SNT and SSL) have the advantage of all the lessons Eiki learned but they also have more plastic parts than the MS-850 (very heavy) MS-860 and ST and RT machines. Getting motors for the early machines might require you buy another of the same model for parts (and hope that the motor is OK). I went thru motors on my MS-860s since I think those were underpowered and the additional windings to provide the amp voltages didn't help.

John

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted November 20, 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks John that is helpfull.
Could you advise please how one tells if magnetic sound as well as optical?

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Regards,
David

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted November 20, 2004 01:06 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony
You might find this site of interest:
http://www.projex-sales.com/Pages.html/16mmprojectors.html
It's a Elf/Eiki specialist dealer in Plymouth and the site has photos of certain models. You may not want to spend £1,700 on a new projector, but it may well be the only place in the UK that sells brand new Eikis as well as used ones!
I've spoken to a man called Bob Hall there, who was very helpful when I needed some spares, and he mentioned - as John did - that the more recent models are better in terms of their film handling capabilities.
The 1980s NT1 seems to be the most common machine around now, and you can pick up ones in excellent condition for a good price. However, I've owned two - both little used in mint condition - and both have had exasperating problems such as unsteadiness through the gate; noisy cracking sounds from the gears when you start rewinding; and also mysterious rattling sounds (which other owners have also mentioned) that come and go and seem virtually impossible to find the source of. I may have been unlucky but I'm now opting for slim line 1990s machines instead. I've recently obtained two (a slot load and an autothread) but I can't say more as neither have quite reached my home yet!

Adrian

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Adrian Winchester

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 21, 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
David

There are a couple of ways to tell if the projector has magnetic sound as well as optical.

First there is a code in the model numbers.

Ending in -0 is optical with internal speaker
ending in -1 is optical with speaker in lid
ending in -2 is magnetic playback
ending in -3 is magnetic record and playback

Not all machines were made in all these version.

Also on the SNT/SSL machines there is a optical/mag switch on the amp plate. On the ST/RT/NT machines there is a rotary knob on the amp that switches between optical and magnetic.

The MS-850 had a flip up mag head near the flywheel, the MS-860 projectors also had a rotary switch that engaged the mag head and switch the amp located on the amp panel.

Most of the problems mentioned with the NT, can be easily corrected by a knowlegeable tech. One drawback to the Eiki/Elf is that since the parts are so easily removed, they are often reassembled without doing all the necessary adjustments for claw protrustion, placement and framing. A well adjusted NT machine will work as well as any of the later machines. I'd stay away from the earlier machines just because of age (The 860s are late 1960s, the RTs 1970s, etc).

John

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 21, 2004 09:59 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

I collect 8 and 16mm. With the 16's, I'm running B&H models 1574 &1545.

The reason for my question is two fold. Sometimes I hear some WOW while the films are starting up, and afterwards, I notice some wear between the soundtrack and picture. [Frown]

I clean the films, run them between rewinds, and constantly use a Q-Tip swab to clean the rails of the pressure plate, and aperature plate between reels.

Is there something that I am overlooking, or is it the machines?

Are the Eiki Machines better units than the ones which I'm using?
Also, I have never seen an ELF Projector? [Confused]

Regards,
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted November 22, 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Micheal,
For some reason, Eiki projectors were called Elf in the UK - so they are essentially the same machines.
Adrian

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Adrian Winchester

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 22, 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, Adrian, many thanks for this very helpful information

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Tony

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 23, 2004 09:54 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Elf was the UK distributor for Eiki and at the same time IAV was the US distributor. Eiki took back the US market first, then the UK and then Canada. Don't know about other parts of the world, but there was another distributor (Hammenx ?) in Australia.

Michael,

All projectors are going to wear between the picture and the sound track. If you look at your film gate and pressure shoe you'll notice that there is metal pressing against the film at those places to hold the film flat in the aperture.

As for your WOW problems, there can be many causes of this in your B&H units. A worn motor belt, a take up problem, a loose sound sprocket are three common problems that come to mind. Also remember there can be problems with prints such as shrunken film and even poorly made prints from the lab. A service manual is almost a necessity nowadays for any collector as repair services are few and extremely pricey.

John

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted November 25, 2004 04:52 AM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NT-1 (UK 230V)
NT-1 (110v)
NT-2
SNT-2
SNT-2 (110V)

Is there a lot of difference between these in features, performance and age?

I had thought the 1 meant optical and the 2 meant optical and magnetic, but NT-2 I'm asking about is decribed as optical.

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Regards,
David

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted November 25, 2004 11:01 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David:
I own a NT2, it's both optical and magnetic playback.

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 25, 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
David,

The major difference you'll find is that the motors in the 230/110 international standard machines can be set for either voltage as can the main lamp/amp transformer. Otherwise if that NT-2 is really an NT-2 it should have magnetic playback.

I'd opt for the SNT versions if it was my choice.

John

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 25, 2004 10:56 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adrian and John:

Adrian, thank you for the clarification [Smile]

John, thank you for the insight and assistance with the wear and sound issues.
It's good to know.
I feel better now. [Smile] I guess it will help if we can service our own units.

Incidentally, I picked up an additional B&H 1574, and found that the screws on the pressure plate, were screwed in too deeply. I just backed off the screws so that they would not pierce and scratch the film picture area. Is this an adequate adjustment, or do I need to do more to prevent the screws from loosening from vibration to prevent this from occuring? [Confused]
Frankly I'm scared to run film in this machine at the present time.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Best,
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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