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Topic: 16-CL question

David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted January 27, 2008 11:19 AM

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Having had intercourse of the communicatory kind with Kev regarding various aspects of this projector, an anomaly appears to have arisen.

Does it have a 2 or 3 bladed shutter?

Mine has 3 blades, Kevin's has 2 blades, and apparently the manual only refers to 2 blades. Mine is definitely and without question OEM.

Can anyone shed any light on this one? Are US models different from EU models, or is it maybe to do with age / serial numbers?

Hopefully someone has the answer.

Best regards,

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 27, 2008 05:20 PM

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I know of three std CL's which have 2 blade shutters and not 3. One being my own.

As David said it would be good to know what shutters others have in their CL's.

Thanks, Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

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From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

posted January 27, 2008 06:19 PM

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Mine all have 2 blade shutters:
- 16-CL std. (M&O)
- 16-CL Deluxe (M&O)
- 16-CL Xenon (M&O)

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 28, 2008 02:35 AM

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The service manual only shows a two-bladed shutter and makes no mention of a three-bladed.

Maurice

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Maurice

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted January 28, 2008 08:56 AM

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Mine is optical only and sound speed only. Does this make any difference, I wonder. [Confused]

[Confused]

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 28, 2008 10:43 AM

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David

I searched on the Net and found that Elmo shipped the CL with two and three bladed shutters. It appears that the 2-bladed gave more light, however, I did find a comment which said:-

"I find 3-blade shutters to be much easier on my eyes."

There is a firm in the USA who supply five bladed shutters for CLs to be used for flickerless video transfer.

Perhaps that was implied by the remark above. Less flicker effect with the 3-blade?

Maurice

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Maurice

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Jeff Chaney
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Long Beach, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted January 30, 2008 11:39 PM

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I have 4 elmo CL's
2 of them have the 2 blade shutter which have somewhat large notches, 1 of them has the 3 blade which has very thin notches in the shutter and then i have one with the 5 blade shutter which also has the thin notches. I think it might have something to do with the age of the projector as my 3 blade is newer than the 2 blade ones.

The 5 blade shutter works perfectly for home telecine.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 01, 2008 04:05 AM

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The Movie Maker test report of August 1977 says:-

"The projector is intended mainly for the projection of optical sound films at 24 f.p.s., and the shutter has only two blades, each of 60 degrees. Two blades are of course entirely adequate for large-screen projection at 24 f.p.s., but render the machine unsuitable for projection of silent films at 16 or 18 f.p.s. because of flicker."

In their summing up they didn't like the difficulty of changing the speed to 18 f.p.s., and the bad flicker at that speed.

So, perhaps, the three-bladed machine sacrifices some light in order to reduce flicker at the slower speed.

Maurice

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Maurice

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 01, 2008 06:54 AM

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I wasnt aware that it would run at 18fps.

Have just found this in the Manual and it seems you can but providing the Hz hasnt been changed?

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jeff Chaney
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From: Long Beach, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted February 01, 2008 11:22 AM

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That part of the manual is a bit deceptive since every CL I have ever seen only has the pulleys to change the Hz. I have never seen one with the pulleys to change the speed.
Cheers
Dino

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 01, 2008 04:58 PM

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Yes I must admit that I found those instructions a little strange.
The way I read it is that if you have a 50Hz machine and change the pulley to the 60Hz setting you will get a slower speed etc. Obviously doesn't work for a machine set to 60Hz from the factory.

Think thats the right way round.

Kev.

[ February 23, 2008, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Faulkner ]

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Maurice Leakey
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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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posted February 02, 2008 02:40 AM

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The CLs instructions are ambiguous and I quote once more from the Movie Maker review (August 1977).

"........alternative pulleys are provided, so that by changing over the belt (rather a struggle) the running speed can be changed to 18 f.p.s. The handbook also suggests that this alternative belt position can be used to give 24 f.p.s. running on a 60 Hz mains frequency - but, as the ratio 24/18 is not the same as 60/50, obviously it cannot do both! The ratio chosen does, in fact, seem to be a compromise, and our test machine ran at about 19 f.p.s. in the '18' setting."

The instuction book can only really refer to a machine set to run by the factory at 50 cycles. You can change the speed or the cycles, but not both together. Would the reciprocal suggestions also work on a basic 60 cycle projector?

I also have a Bell & Howell TQIII which does not have a silent speed setting but does have a lever under the lamp housing marked 50 - 60. By sliding the switch the drive belt is flicked onto another pulley. Thus at the 60 cycle setting (on GB 50 cycle mains) the projector runs at a slower speed which is suitable for the showing of silent films at 18 f.p.s. although I don't know exactly at what speed it runs. But my same comment above refers to this, I assume that if this same machine was used on a 60 cycle mains (and set at 60) a change to the 50 setting would make the motor run faster than 24 f.p.s.

Maurice

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Maurice

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 02, 2008 04:37 AM

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Right that makes sense. So a machine in the US doesnt have any chance of running at the slower speed just European 50HZ versions.
Anyway that doesnt answer why Elmo have used either 2 or 3 blade shutters when they know that most of these machines if not all will be running at 24fps.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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posted February 02, 2008 05:48 AM

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Kev

I suggest that when the owners of new CLs in 1977 slipped over the belts to select silent speed they were plagued with flicker.

So perhaps Elmo then introduced the 3-bladed shutter to reduce this problem?

Maurice

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Maurice

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Richard C Patchett
Master Film Handler

Posts: 424
From: Flint Mi 48506
Registered: Dec 2007

posted February 17, 2008 09:23 AM

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Greetings
The 2 blade was used in the schools to show short distances. These were the early models. The Latter models came with the 3 blade.

--------------------
RC’s Classic Collection
16 mm Parts & Service
Elmo, Eiki, Bell & Howell +
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted February 20, 2008 06:06 AM

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OK,

1. The fact is, that my machine with the 3 bladed shutter has 3 large apertures, not slits.

2. The ratio of 50Hz to 60Hz means that on a 50Hz supply, with the belt in the 60Hz position, the projector will run at 19.999fps.

3. Therefore, on a 60Hz supply, with the belt in the 50Hz position, the projector will run at 28.8fps.

4. There is absolutely no facility on my 16-CL for actually changing the frame speed.

I reckon that 20fps is a bit too fast for silent movies, so, indeed, the instruction manual is TOTALLY misleading!

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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