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Topic: Best theater speaker choice?

Hamid Moqadam
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Kuwait
Registered: Aug 2009

posted September 04, 2009 07:55 PM

Hi,

Im looking for a good speaker for B&H 2585 16mm projector, the speaker im using it right now is the external type which comes with projector, its good for midrange and high frequency, but lacks the bass or low frequency.

Im looking for speaker can give same 70s sound like in theaters; I just feel that period is a golden age for both sound and speakers [Smile]

. To be precise about the sound im looking for; very large bass or low frequency, not as a deep! But BIG or large, where every sound can fill the room, also very natural soft high frequency. I don’t like THIN sound like CD or digital! Because does make big sounds (gunfire, spaceships engines, cars, vocals…) very small! Which is not equivalent to reality!

Because it is low amp (maximum 20 RMS watts), they told me i need high efficiency crossover. My dealer recommend Altec Lansing 604 vintage as best choice, other recommend JBL 2155. I never listened to these speakers before and I don’t know how they sound! I can go for Altec but too expensive and I want to be sure, do these speakers have the sound im looking for? Are there other choices?

Can anyone help please?
Many thanks.

[ September 05, 2009, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Hamid Moqadam ]

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Hamid Moqadam
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Kuwait
Registered: Aug 2009

posted September 07, 2009 05:48 PM

Or any general speaker recommendation?

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted September 07, 2009 10:31 PM

Hamid,

Two suggestions:

1. If you really want to use the built-in amp of the projector, the one brand of speaker I can think of that is incredibly efficient is Klipsch. They are not cheap, but they can rattle the walls with very little power. And they are very 'old-school' 60es and 70es speakers.
However, you will still be at the mercy of the limitations of the amplifier in the projector; you won't get really 'ear-friendly' sound that way.

2.If you are after wide-frequency sound, I would suggest getting an external amplifier and running 2 speakers through that.

A good hi-fi amp from the late 70es/early 80es with a pair of decent speakers will easily give better sound than anything the projector can do with its own power amp.
You will have tone controls that can help you shape the sound better as well.

JBL speakers have been used in many public installations, and a good pair of those will give you plenty of range and sound. I had a set for my stereo (model 350; floor-standing) and they delivered all the 'boom' you could want.

Check EBay and see what's available. The one thing to keep in mind with older speakers is that the rubber surrounding the speaker units deteriorates, so you will want to make sure that the seller has had them re-done before you buy.
Or else you can go for a set of newer speakers (again, JBL, and Infinity are good choices.)

Good luck in your search [Smile]

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Hamid Moqadam
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Kuwait
Registered: Aug 2009

posted September 08, 2009 06:15 AM

Hi Claus, Thank you for replying to me and good information too. [Smile]

From what I understand even if I go with Klipsch like Cornwall III or Heresey III, still I cant get good sound either because of low power amp! I don’t know why told me a speaker design like Altec Lansing 604 should work perfect with low amp like from 10 to 50 watt!

However, Im not sure if can use the external amp either! Because there is only one output jack on B&H 2585 (also known as 25C) and its for the speaker (20 watt RMS and 8 Ohm). Unless if the internal amp is replaced by another bigger amp.

Just wondering, what people generally use other external speaker with B&H 2585?

Many thanks.

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted September 08, 2009 07:52 AM

Hamid,

The way I do it when I want to run 'good' sound from my 16mm Eikis is to use that same 'speaker out' connection into the "line-in" plugs of the external amp.

The key thing is to set the volume on the projector quite low so you don't overdrive the external amp. That way, the projector doesn't work very hard to send sound out (less distortion) and the external amp receives a low enough signal that it is clean and can be boosted from there.

You need to check and see if your B & H offers the choice of pulling the plug halfway out of the speaker jack, which on some machines will make a line-level signal for you instead of a variable speaker-out signal.
If it does, you need a quarter-inch plug that is 'balanced', i.e. it has two black rings on the tip. But check first if it even applies to your machine.

I still think an external amp is the way for you to go. I too am an old hi-fi buff (lps, tape) and I have never heard a built-in amp in a 16mm projector that gave anything I would call 'good' sound; at least not good enough that I would sit through a feature film with it unless there was no other choice.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted September 08, 2009 08:13 AM

Neither the Operating manual nor the Service manual give any indication of a "Line-Out" facility on this machine. However, my many years of experience of servicing audio amplifiers tells me that the "top end" of the volume control in virtually any Audio Amplifier is a suitable point to "tap off" a signal at "line out" level. So, Hamid, if you know an electronics or audio hobbyist with reasonable skills, such a point would require only the fitting of an Output Socket and a couple of wires. If you're handy yourself with an electronics soldering iron and want some guidance, please post back with your email address.

Martin

[ September 08, 2009, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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David Erskine
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 230
From: Letchworth Garden City, Herts
Registered: Aug 2008

posted September 08, 2009 03:15 PM

You might consider a thing called an 'Induction Box' (used by strange people like musos) which takes input from aspeaker out jack and has 3 different outputs making the signal a mic in to an amp or mixer.

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I've NEVER let failure go to MY head!

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Hamid Moqadam
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Kuwait
Registered: Aug 2009

posted September 10, 2009 04:43 AM

Claus, Martin, and David, thank you very much for helpful information. I understand.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted September 10, 2009 03:11 PM

The induction box idea is a very good one -- here stateside we call it a "Direct Box," the idea being that the signal is transformer isolated. No danger of frying a line input that way.

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Jeff Taylor
Film Handler

Posts: 70
From: Chatham, NJ
Registered: Aug 2005

posted September 10, 2009 04:42 PM

I don't mean to overcomplicate this answer, but one of the problems with deep bass in 16mm is that optical sound doesn't really go much below 500 cycles, and that knocks out the low bass frequencies no matter how good a speaker you chose. In my current setup I send the sound through a two channel equalizer to separate the bass from the mid and treble frequencies. The bass side then goes to a dbx subharmonic synthesizer ($60 on ebay), which electronically creates an extra octave of lower bass sound. Then the treble/mid sound goes to one channel of a QSC 900 watt amp, and the bass goes to the other channel. For the mid/treble side I use a Yamaha PA speaker with a 12" woofer and a horn tweeter, while the bass goes to a Yamaha 18" subwoofer. This setup really pumps out bass you can feel. I use Eiki EX-3500 xenon projectors which have a line output built in, so I didn't need to face that issue, but most guys who don't have a line out use one of the amp to line converters sold at car audio store or in the US at Radio Shack. Good luck.

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Jeff

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted September 10, 2009 04:49 PM

Jeff,
My point exactly about getting the signal out so it can be EQed or otherwise 'helped' to overcome the poor frequency response of 16mm optical sound.
The subharmonic unit I have heard of before. Glad to hear that it really gives some 'omph' to 16mm.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Hamid Moqadam
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Kuwait
Registered: Aug 2009

posted September 10, 2009 08:11 PM

Hi Jeff,

The equalizers you mention sound very good. However, one person who works and sells motion picture equipments insists that Altec Lansing 604 have a 1600 cycle passive crossover! Which also design to work only with low power amp from 10 to 50 watt ARMS and have very large bass.

Have anyone try this speaker with low power amp? If this solution works then I don’t have to buy other units like equalizer and amp. It will just one speaker connect to projector.

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Jeff Taylor
Film Handler

Posts: 70
From: Chatham, NJ
Registered: Aug 2005

posted September 11, 2009 10:32 AM

The Altec VOT's are very efficient. I recall driving one of the biggest VOT's from a Kodak Pageant projector which probably didn't have more than a 10-12 watt amp with good results. Actually, though, amp wattage isn't much of a concern as long as you have enough power that you're not clipping or into distortion, so whether you use a 20 watt amp or my 900 watt QSC really doesn't matter much as long as you don't crank it up to the point where you blow the speakers, and you'll blow your ears before that happens!

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Jeff

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