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Topic: 16mm prints restoration

Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted November 04, 2009 01:37 AM

Yes Darren, but due to different frame rate the image is not perfect. He told me that he's working on that

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Joe McAllister
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 179
From: London England
Registered: May 2007

posted November 06, 2009 02:56 AM

quote:
Difficult to do "on the fly" because it has to be done at the same speed as the TV material, 25 fps instead of 24 fps to avoid flicker, which creates a non standard projection speed.

Actually there is no problem with speed and flicker using a PAL DVD source for telerecording.
With PAL transfers the 24fps film is run at 25fps to match tv frame rates thus speeding the film up which is why TV running times are shorter than their theatrical RT quoted on IMDB for example. This method means that the film and the transfer have the same amount of frames. So when telercording the film recorder(camera) is run at 25fps catching all the original frames, then projected at 24fps thus reverting to the original "film" speed.No need for animation techniques.
NTSC transfers the film at 24fps and electronically invents an extra frame after every 4th frame to make up to 30fps. Arriflexes like the one demonstrated in the clip could be run at either 24 or 25 fps which was the speed used for TV productions.

[ November 07, 2009, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Joe McAllister ]

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Always interested in privately produced amateur and home movies.

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009

posted November 06, 2009 03:50 PM

Here is a good translation tool to use if you want to read the notes. Just pick the to and from languages, copy past the test, and read the translations.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Fabrizio, can I have the contact email for this gentlemen please?

I need the scene from when Charlie is walking along and finds the money in the gutter and goes into the store to buy some candy.

If need be I would be happy to buy the DVD for the footage without the DVD needing to be returned.

Thank you.
---Wayne Tuell

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

posted November 06, 2009 06:56 PM

Wayne,
you can find his e-mail contact at the end of the video I have posted.
Good luck! [Wink]

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 07, 2009 08:21 PM

Do you think is there any point to use Blue Ray rather than DVD for the source when the 16mm camera is taking the picture from a small screen on VP? I don't think there is a different between them.

My question that is not answered, in his youtube, the camera magazine is open. Does this not harm to the film?

thanks,

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Winbert

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted November 08, 2009 12:57 AM

Winbert, I spoke with Marco a couple of days ago and he told me that he should have solved the issue with BD. He's making some other tests in these days and he'll let know the result.
I saw extracts both from dvd and blue ray and the difference in definition is noticable expecially when you project on big screens.

In the video, the magazine is open only for showing purpouses. If you have a closer look at the video, the film inside the magazine has been already developed and is ready for projection (look at the point where he shows sound recording, you may identify the red variable density track on the film)

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009

posted November 10, 2009 01:31 PM

I sent an email in hopes of having some replacement footage made. I hope he can do it for me. [Smile]

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 11, 2009 11:32 AM

Marco is to be commended on his work. Many many years ago, I worked for George Harvey who was part owner of a lab and built Kinescope cameras. In the NTSC 30 fps world, it's a bit more complex and the shutter is adjusted to make an exposure of exactly one field (and this adjustment is so fine that the final timing can be just a coat of paint on the edge of the shutter).

Thus on TV material, only fields were recorded or in short half the image of a live broadcast. Sound was recorded single system with either a Maurer F Prime galvo or an Auricon galvo (if the customer didn't want to spend the money for the Maurer).

We could record either a negative or positive and switch the Maurer galvo for the proper sound track. Everything was black and white back then and Kodak made a Television Recording film that was made specifically for the type of display tube we were using.

Marco has adapted all this to current products and has come up with a method of getting enough light to expose color positive print film (which is quite a challenge on it's own). He also has come up with a way to expose single system sound. I would love to know what he's using as a modulator and light source since getting a sound exposure from that slit requires a lot of light. (His sound might improve a bit if he's using a broadspectrum light source with a #12 filter to restrict the exposure to the top two layers of the print film (if they've left everything on xx83 in the same order as before in layers).

To do the same thing in NTSC would really require a source that could output 24fps instead of 30fps so a full frame could be recorded. That shouldn't be impossible with blu-ray since movies are generally stored that way, but I'm sure Marco knows his way around that and his 25fps might be just fine for 24fps playback, he might just have to use PAL media to start with.

This wouldn't work for any program that was shot with video cameras such as concerts (cameras for feature work, generally are running at 24fps because they want to make a digital intermediate which is done on a film recorder one frame at a time and not in real time).

Excellent work, Marco. And building a processing machine as well!

John

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted November 13, 2009 12:16 PM

Just got an email from Marco that he has finished with my film. So I sent payment and I should have it in a week or so. Will let everyone know how it is.

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 17, 2009 08:47 PM

I'm highly impressed with this setup and have written to Marco about some possible work; I'm anxious to hear back.

Larry A., I see you've converted a video file to PAL from an NTSC source but I'm still unclear as to how this is done.

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted November 17, 2009 09:57 PM

I used mpeg streamclip and there is a place to put the frames per second and to choose whatever codec for the quicktime. I should have left it at 24 and brought it in after effects and coverted it to 25 there. I've done this before on shows I've worked on. Oh well, I'm anxiously awaiting the film's arrival.

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009

posted November 17, 2009 10:59 PM

I eagerly await the results. As soon as I'm done moving/un-packing I'm supposed to have Marco do some work for me too. [Smile]

Regardless if the work is just good or fantastic I'm having it done. Reading that it is fantastic will make it that much better. [Big Grin]

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 17, 2009 11:08 PM

Larry, my concern is this... if you have a NTSC video source which runs at 30fps, hasn't it been made by taking a 24fps source and cloning every 4th frame? The only way I can think of to achieve 25fps would be drop all but one of those cloned 4th frames from each second of footage. Perhaps certain software can do this, but how to ensure that the cloned frames are the ones that are dropped? I'm really not a techie so I'm not savvy to these specifics but if I knew what to do, I'd send him a test or two. It seems like from one of your followup posts Marco said there was a problem with some frames in your conversion. I can't afford to screw anything up with my budget [Wink]

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 18, 2009 12:50 PM

I've heard back from Marco now and he said:
"well, send me a original files from dvd ( is .vob)i can convert that
in the conversion to 30 to 25 go lose some frame .....is normal"
He can also take 24fps, but at a larger resolution.

Since I'm dealing with animation, I can't afford for the conversion from 30fps to 24 to drop any random frames- it ruins the fluidity of the animation. If anyone knows of a "magic bullet", a program that lets you drop a specific frame such as every 5th [duplicate] frame, I'd really appreciate the tip.

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

posted November 18, 2009 01:28 PM

Does Sorrensnon Squeeze allow such specificity?

In a tedious situation I believe AVID would allow single frame removals

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 18, 2009 02:11 PM

Thanks Dino- and if either lets you render the whole file automatically with something like "remove every 5th frame", even better. I found some discussions but am not sure if they address the problem exactly:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-275710.html

"Premiere Pro gives you the control to work with 24p
Premiere 6.5 and back, don't drop the neccisary frames. It does capture the footage, but it doesn't drop the duplicate frames or interlaced frames.

How it works. To keep the same tape standards to work with MiniDV, The cameras that record 24p Advanced, capture 24 fps, and every 5 frames either add a duplicate of the last, or an interlaced frame to make it 29.97 fps. When using software that understands this, the software drops every 5th frame and lets you edit in 24fps."

and-

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-172475.html

"i've tried using compressor to straight-up re-time it, but it just drops every 5th frame and looks stuttery... is there a special technique? frame blending of some sort? "

(Isn't this what we need?)

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

posted November 18, 2009 03:21 PM

Tom can you send me a small test animation file and I'll run it through my sorrenson pal setup and see what we get?

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 18, 2009 05:36 PM

Sure Dino, I'll prepare a test clip and put it on an FTP for you to download. Send me your email address again to cartoonsonfilm@gmail.com

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted November 21, 2009 01:11 AM

Just received the film today. I am very grateful to finally have the main titles and a missing section from my print of THE JOLSON STORY. THANK YOU MARCO for offering this service.

There are a few things that could be improved on. The blacks were a little thin and could be printed a little darker which will also improve contrast and color. I thought it was a bit lacking in color. I'm not sure what his process for printing from the file I gave him. Whether it was some kind of conversion for printing straight to color print or the processing. Does anyone know if he does his own developing? If so, are the chemicals replenished or other factors? In theory, the result should have been more contrasty, but I'm still grateful for what I have.

Next thing is CLASH OF THE TITANS. The TV print I have is missing several little scenes. The blu-ray is coming out in March 2010.

Here are some screen caps. The first 2 are from the titles. The 3rd is from my Tech print and the 4th is from Marco's print which shows the lack of color.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

posted November 21, 2009 08:52 AM

quote:
Does anyone know if he does his own developing

Hi Larry, how are you? The answer is yes, he does everything by himself, but I ignore if something is possible to emprove blacks or fix them in a better way.
The result seems anyway to be very good. So happy for you.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted November 21, 2009 09:53 AM

Forgot to mention the sound was very good. Very clear. There was no difference in the sound from my print to Marco's.

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 21, 2009 04:20 PM

Looks great, Larry! I currently have Marco trying a couple files. While I'm guessing the contrast isn't perfect on your print, would you say it's much better than a typical dupe print?

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted November 21, 2009 06:09 PM

A dupe print is usually has more contrast with darker blacks and whiter whites losing detail in both ends. That's why it seemed odd that it was flat with greyer blacks.

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Thomas Stathes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 21, 2009 08:03 PM

Hmmm...well I deal primarily in cartoons, and the problem with dupes for me is the blacks tend to be washed out, aside from other loss in detail.

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Drop me a line at CartoonsOnFilm@gmail.com

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted November 22, 2009 12:36 AM

Larry, the extract Marco made for me has a similar problem.

When I spoke with him the first time, he explained all the process and all the rehersal he made to have a good print quality. Looking at the pictures, it seems that a particular color is missing and this could be due both to positive/negative conversion of the image and to a not proper color lamp temperature (he changed the projector bulb with a different one and he reduced the voltage to the bulb to give the proper film color temperature).

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