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Author Topic: Eastman LPP and vinegar syndrome
Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 30, 2010 01:33 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is there a procduct that cleans films that smells like VS i have a print that smells but shows no signs of warpping or curling or any VS symptoms its LPP Eastman stock film with brilliant colors?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted March 30, 2010 01:38 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it smells like VS it most likely is VS. Try some camphor to mask the smell if thats all you want to do.

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 30, 2010 02:25 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim,

You can store it away from your other films(a room of it's own?) on the reels(no can). This way it will off gas and the smell should diminish greatly. It's kind of what some wives do with there flatulent husbands. [Big Grin]

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 30, 2010 05:16 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for that info I thought I read somewhere a long time ago that a cleaner out there smells like VS the film even has a sticker at the beginning that says it was clean (rejuvenated) in austrailia.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted March 30, 2010 06:08 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know what product you heard about, but I've come across the occasional film that I've concluded almost certainly doesn't have VS, but has a smell that caused me to think about it.

I would also be inclined to think - although I'm not sure if VS experts would agree - that an LPP print is likely to be less vunerable to getting VS than (eg) a much older b/w print. I presume yours is acetate, as a polyester print can't get VS.

Finally, if you remain unsure, you could buy a set of test strips: http://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/shtml_sub/cat_adstrips.asp

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Adrian Winchester

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted March 30, 2010 07:22 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I transfer films professionally and have found some films have a light vinegar smell but no dimensional problems...yet. I believe it is just the first stage of vinegar syndrome, where there hasn't been any shrinkage or degradation. Today, I transferred twelve 400' 16mm home movie from the 1930s - 1960s. All the films from the 1950s back had some vinegar smell. Two reels from the 1930s could not be transferred due to extensive shrinkage. One other reel had pretty bad shrinkage, but I was able to run it, even though it exhibited quite a bit of frame movement on the screen. Three other reels from the 1930s had the smell and appeared to have just started to degrade,and ran well.
I once had an LPP print of "The Bramble Bush", which had the quickest onset of VS I have ever seen. After six months,it would not run and I threw it away.

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John Hermes

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 30, 2010 07:28 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim,

The film cleaner "Vitafilm" has a strong smell similar to VS. In fact, I came across an unscrupulous seller who used Vitafilm to hide the vinegar smell of the print he sold me.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted March 30, 2010 08:33 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"The film cleaner "Vitafilm" has a strong smell similar to VS"

That's ironic, considering that it's a product that claims to cure VS!

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Adrian Winchester

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 31, 2010 12:31 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug, do you know where one can obtain vita film?
Adrian, it is acetate since there is cement splices in it the film was bought by me in 2004 from ebay and it was labeled as a VS film but i bought it anyhow and it has been stored in a can all these years and it projected fine yesterday.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 31, 2010 05:16 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim,

Sure! Try this site.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

- posted April 02, 2010 02:25 AM      Profile for Dino Everette     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes I would suggest doing what Dan mentioned since the onset of VS will only be accelerated with the reel in any can, because it will keep the gasses trapped.....The best you can do is slow the VS down, there are many products that claim to cure it but at best it can only slow.....That being said, if you do act fast enough at the onset you can still enjoy that film for probably many more screenings...Isolation and Ventilation are the keys....OH and there are a number of those scratch proofing processes like Photoguard that don't cause VS but actually can make a film go from bad to unusable much faster because the protective coating thing that helped the film against scratching is also the thing that keeps the gasses trapped which speeds up the VS....

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted April 02, 2010 10:10 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Myself I have always been very wary of handling any film with vinegar syndrome, only had 3 and used good gloves at the hint of whiff.

I can`t help wondering when running films they are throwing dust and smell etc out from a vinegar print, is that safe to breathe. I certainly would`nt dream of running one with the kids in the house.

I wouldn`t keep them in the house either.

I threw all 3 out as they came in anyway.

Best Mark.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted April 02, 2010 03:50 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is also an alternative (and more expensive) approach to ventilation as you can put molecular seives in with the film in a close-fitting can. I've heard that this can be very effective and I've just bought some to try it myself. You have to remember to change them every 2 years though.

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Adrian Winchester

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted April 02, 2010 06:23 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Adrian, need to mail you, just running very behind, excuse me please.
Best wishes Mark.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted April 03, 2010 05:38 AM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adrian, where is it possible to get those molecular seives?
Will you be so kind to let me know, please?
Thanks.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 03, 2010 12:26 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gian,

In the States, Urbanski Film carries the sieves. The description reads:

MOLECULAR SIEVES These packets are put in cans with your film to absorb acedic acid (vinegar syndrome). Helps prevent vinegar in healthy prints, or helps lengthen the life of vinegar prints..each…50 cents. Full can of 120 sieves. $55

Larry Urbanski's usage directions are:

Separate the sieves using scissors. In 16mm or 8mm
Use 3 for 2000ft subject
2 for a 1000ft subject
and 1 for a 400ft subject.

For 35mm double the 16mm sieve amount.

Close the sieves in the film can with the film.
Inspect at least once a year or less for odor.
Use twice the recommended amount of sieves if the print smells of vinegar and inspect at least every 2 months.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted April 04, 2010 02:51 AM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Grazie Doug [Wink] .

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted April 06, 2010 06:21 AM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Order placed, Doug.
Once again, thanks a lot.
Ciao [Wink] .

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 07, 2010 01:11 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
got my vitafilm and have soaked am 8mm home movie it for 24 hrs it is now in a can to sit for 90+ days now if i can remember to check in that time frame [Big Grin]
what does this stuff do to tape splices? anybody, anybody, Bueller, bueller [Smile]

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Jeff Taylor
Film Handler

Posts: 70
From: Chatham, NJ
Registered: Aug 2005

- posted April 08, 2010 04:03 PM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A member of 16mm filmtalk, Peter Goed from Australia, sells small bottles of a camphor based liquid he calls Liquid Plasticizer. I've never tried it, but he claims it actually puts back the material in the cellulose acetate film which the acetic acid (the evil chemical which causes the smell in VS) destroys causing warp, brittleness, and shrinkage in film. I know it sounds questionable, but guys claim to have had good results. It involves lengthy soaking of the affected print in a lab can with a few drops of this stuff. Register at www.16mmfilmtalk.com and you can do a search on the process and contact Peter. Not much to lose.

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Jeff

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted April 11, 2010 02:21 AM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"got my vitafilm and have soaked am 8mm home movie it for 24 hrs it is now in a can to sit for 90+ days now if i can remember to check in that time frame
what does this stuff do to tape splices?"
If you soaked it for 24 hours, the tape splices have probably loosened and will need to be redone later.

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John Hermes

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 13, 2010 04:49 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Couple of thoughts:

1) DO NOT SOAK in Vitafilm.. It was never designed for soaking. If you want to soak a print to relax warping, use Filmrenew.

2) If you aren't sure about a smell, get some A-D Test strips and use them to gauge whether a print has vinegar.
http://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=15

3) If your print was "rejeuventated" and smells, then sadly it's probably vinegar. There were several different scratch removal processes, and at least one of them involved an acetic acid bath, and pretty much any print treated with this process has gone vinegar.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 26, 2010 08:52 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
but they recommend one soaks a film for 24hrs in this the let it sit in a can for 3-4 months to let the vitafilm do its job.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

- posted April 26, 2010 09:27 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have soaked films in Vitafilm for days (and weeks) with no problems. I remember right in the instructions it talks about soaking.

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John Hermes

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Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 130
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017

- posted May 01, 2018 04:06 AM      Profile for Can Sanalan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can across this article.

http://www.afana.org/preservation.htm

Maybe there's some truth to it.

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