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Author Topic: Getting into 16mm
Nick Field
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 102
From: Herefordshire England
Registered: Jul 2010


 - posted February 20, 2011 02:27 PM      Profile for Nick Field   Email Nick Field   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi people,I'm thinking of purchasing a 16mm projector,just wondering if any of you have any views or preferences on 16mm projectors, any to steer clear of? mechanical and sound issues etc.
Many Thanks.
Nick.

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1235
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 20, 2011 03:36 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Nick,
My preference are the Elf/Eiki range of 16mm projectors,They can be picked up for a reasonable sum and are reliable workhorses.I've had the ST/m models in the past which were great,200w lamps and 2200 reel capacity,I'm now using two NT1 models and again are great reliable machines with 250w lamps.I've owned a couple Bell & Howell over the years but have found them quite noisey in operation and you've got to watch the worm gears on those as they can crack.Elmo CL's(slot loaders)are nice and quiet but the sound isn't it's best feature,Saying that though it's not terrible.So for me a good NT1 Elf i've found to be a good useable and reliable unit,Kind to film and fairly quiet running,Also plenty about so spares shouldn't be a problem,Mark.

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 20, 2011 05:03 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Mark.

I use an Eiki RM-1 and a RT-1. Both excellent.

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1060
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted February 20, 2011 06:46 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have an Eiki SSL-0 and and SL-0. Both nice machines.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2935
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted February 20, 2011 08:29 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An important attribute with regard to Eiki/Elf projectors is that they were still being made at least up to 2003, so most spares and lenses are readily available. In general, they are also considered easier to repair than some other types. I've owned several and I'd say you can't beat the most recent models, which would be ENT or SNT (autothread) or SSL or ESL (slot load). The ENT is my personal favourite. However, these models are relatively hard to find in the UK - I bought mine from sellers in the USA and France - but if you keep a look out on eBay and elsewhere, you might be lucky.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Den Brown
Master Film Handler

Posts: 271
From: London, UK
Registered: Apr 2007


 - posted February 21, 2011 02:32 PM      Profile for Den Brown   Email Den Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Consider what sort of films you will be running. If it is your own stuff, say a cutting copy with several splices, beware, the Elf is brutal with joins. A fantastic machine for complete reels but they behave like savages when a splice passes through them.

The Elmo CL had no such issues.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 21, 2011 03:03 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gee, Den, I've had no such problems with splices and my Eikis at all.

Methinks, you're being a little hard on them.

[Smile]

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Mike Williamson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 183
From: Burbank, CA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted February 21, 2011 03:30 PM      Profile for Mike Williamson   Email Mike Williamson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, I agree with Den. My EIKI SSL is terrible going over splices. It will jump and get noisy and I constantly have to get up and down to stop and restart it if there are many splices.

My ELMO 16CL projectors breeze right through splices.

The EIKI focus knob is a joke, too. Little dinky thing rolling a tiny piece of rubber...It's like a kid's toy.

I now use my EIKI SSL as a rewind station only. I think these projectors suck, honestly.

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted February 21, 2011 04:07 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well my experience with Eiki is this:

I have a Eiki slot load rebadged as a Bell & Howell 3580. The focus knob is a bad design but an easy fix with small rubber hose. Mine works fine. And splices do make noise and occasionally foul up the loop but generally run fine. I have an older Bell & Howell 385 manual load that runs just about any splice you can give it without issue but I can't complain too much about my Eiki/B&H slot load. I love it. Threading and unthreading is a breeze. That's my thoughts.

Bill [Smile]

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1235
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 21, 2011 05:02 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As with most things we all have our preferences,The Bell & Howell machine i had(can't remember the model but it was a very late machine)was very good for splicey films,I think it had a 3 claw mechanism, but i found it was so noisey when running a film that i didn't have it for long!!I didn't think they were that kind on films either.The Elmo CL i found to be lovely,Great for checking films over as they are so easy to use being a slot loader but as i stated earlier i thought the sound lets them down a bit with less adjustment controls.The Elf's i've had since seemed to suit my needs better,A very splicey film can effect them but that's normally down to a bad splice,I've never really had an issue with splices saying that .I've also got a very late brown RM1 machine which is a manual loader and that's just so quiet in operation,but as everyday machines i use the NT1's.

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 21, 2011 05:02 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I have no experience with the slot loaders at all. I use the basic manual threading RM-1 and have had no problems at all with splices.

To each his own, I guess.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2935
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted February 21, 2011 09:33 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've come across Eiki's that are not good at handling splices but I don't think my ENT is bad in this respect. If anyone has this problem, I'd suggest checking if the pressure plate is applying enough pressure because in my experience it's not unusual to find ones that are not. That applied to a virtually unused SSL I obtained a few years ago. Maybe they didn't use top quality springs!

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Paul Spinks
Master Film Handler

Posts: 453
From: Barking, Essex, UK
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted February 21, 2011 10:30 PM      Profile for Paul Spinks   Email Paul Spinks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got a couple of Bell & Howells (2592 and 2585). They are nice machines but I usually always use one of my Elf RM1's when I'm showing films as they are so nice to use and I love the manual lace up. Like Michael I have never had any issues with splices and I must say they are my favourite projectors. I've got an Elf NT1 somewhere but I never use it.

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Nick Field
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 102
From: Herefordshire England
Registered: Jul 2010


 - posted February 22, 2011 01:36 AM      Profile for Nick Field   Email Nick Field   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank's guy's for your replies, bit of a mixed reaction on this one. funnilly enough i've been looking at Elf/Eiki and elmo slot loads for a few months now,the elmo looks to be very basic and user friendly but some models of the Elf/Eiki do have the two formats of mag & opt sound which is tempting me somwhat.The reason for getting into 16mm is that there seems to be a lot more features available than on the super 8 format but i will still collect super 8. [Big Grin]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 22, 2011 07:16 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
there seems to be a lot more features available than on the super 8 format....
You'll also need a lot more money if you're to get decent prints.
[Big Grin]

Welcome to the 16mm nuthouse!!

I sold my wife and kids for film money years ago [Big Grin]

[ February 22, 2011, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Michael O'Regan ]

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Den Brown
Master Film Handler

Posts: 271
From: London, UK
Registered: Apr 2007


 - posted February 22, 2011 10:32 AM      Profile for Den Brown   Email Den Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh dear, looks like I opened a right can of worms. I was not being down on Elfs as I use them - I have three. When I switched from Elmo I could not believe the difference when splices run through an Elf, it is truly wince inducing. Only one machine sometimes gives trouble restoring a loop so this is not an issue. I just do not like the loud judder and fear for the print as it goes through.

I thought I'd mention it in case Nick planned to shoot his own stuff, edit an assembly and project this cutting copy - it would run poorly. However, it seems he will be buying features so there should be no such concerns.

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Nick Field
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 102
From: Herefordshire England
Registered: Jul 2010


 - posted February 22, 2011 02:22 PM      Profile for Nick Field   Email Nick Field   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do like the idea of shooting and editing my own films, it may happen in the near future with a bit of luck. [Smile] [Cool]

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Paul Spinks
Master Film Handler

Posts: 453
From: Barking, Essex, UK
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted February 22, 2011 08:42 PM      Profile for Paul Spinks   Email Paul Spinks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Den,
you didn't open a can of worms with your comments about Elf's as you can only go by your own experience. I personally think that my Bell and Howells are better machines, but I really enjoy the manual lace up on the Elf's which I think is kinder to film and much more fun to use. Also they are solid work horses. I on the other hand have never had a Eumig Standard 8,Super 8 or dual guage projector that didn't give me trouble so I steer clear of them, even though I know that they are great projectors and many collectors have found them to be the best. I just always seem to get the temperamental ones that destroy my films or die very quickly. I am well and truly jinxed when it comes to Eumigs. [Frown]

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 08, 2011 02:39 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have B&H 2580s and 2585s and I love them. Yes, the worm gears are the originals and I know B&H used crappy worms so I expect them to go at some point. One already has slippage so I only use it for rewind functions. Thankfully, there are gents like Richard Patchett who not only repairs these babies, but also sells nicely refurbed units at very reasonable prices. I like the models I use because they are very easy on film and user-friendly. Slot loads are so nice when a film gets stuck because you can easily slip it out without causing more damage. I haven't had problems with splices running through my B&H's and I would definitely buy the same units again.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3976
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted April 23, 2011 04:07 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I bought this Bell and Howell Slot Loader 1680GS "far right in the photo" back in 1996. The projector has had a lot of use over the years and runs great and so far the worm gear is fine and use it all the time. The big plus over the Eiki and I have a few of those as back up, is the 3 claw pull down on the Bell and Howell, compared with the 2 the Eiki has. I have seen other film collectors with Eiki projectors loose there loop often...of coarse this is down to the film itself, but having a three claw on the B/H on old film in my view is much better and safer to use. The thing is, every time you loose a loop you damage more of the film. Eiki projectors are well made machines but its a pity they did not go for that 3 claw arrangement, unfortunately thats where they are let down.
 -
Graham.

Graham.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2935
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted April 23, 2011 02:03 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham - despite being equipped with Eikis, that's one B&H I'd like to have, especially as I'd like one with an easy change to 18fps, which I know is possible. I missed a good one on eBay because I was concerned about the worm gear situation, but then just after the auction someone on the 16mm Forum said that B&H had rectified the problem by the time at least some of these were produced.
As I'm interested in getting one for 18fps, I wondered if they normally have a 2 or 3 bladed shutter?

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1081
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted April 23, 2011 03:57 PM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have changed worm gears on many B & H machines. The TQIII was by far the most straight forward to work on. However, ask anyone who knows their B & H machines, including Steve from Derann's 16mm dept, who said that the best machine is the TQ1.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3976
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted April 23, 2011 07:04 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adrian

The first 16mm projector I owned back in the early 90s was the B/H 642 manual threading and I really liked it. The 642 had a three bladed shutter. I gave it away "big mistake" and I understand from the person that got it that it was a good machine for home movie film transfer work.

Anyway, here is some B/H advertising from the past, also look out for an article from "Movie Maker" Sept 1981, written by Francis Williams called "B/H Through The Ages" in fact it would be an excellent reprint for the FFTC magazine.
 -

 -
Graham.

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Patrick Walsh
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 723
From: North Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Jul 2006


 - posted April 23, 2011 09:45 PM      Profile for Patrick Walsh   Email Patrick Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
always liked my Bell & Howell 631 UK made unit in the wooden blimp, old as the hills but runs well and has a variable apature plate, and a nice tube amplifier.
[Big Grin]

--------------------
"Raise The Titanic!", It would of been cheaper to lower the Atlantic!

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted April 24, 2011 07:49 PM      Profile for Tony Stucchio   Email Tony Stucchio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recommend an EIKI SNT/B&H 3585 (same machine).
It is a trouble-free auto-load. My one and only 16mm projector.

I've never had one, but I've been told to stay clear of the EIKI slot-loads since they can damage film if you are not extremely careful.

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