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Author Topic: Tape Splices Loosing Loop
David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted November 01, 2018 01:54 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Recently ran some 16mm films that during projection (I hadn't run them for some time) the loop was lost. I inspected and repaired each problem spot and the issues were the usual damaged sprockets but I did find several tape splices that were the culprit. They looked OK, but did cause the loop problem. I redid them with a cement splice and the film projects fine now. I wonder if the tape splices had shrunk to the point of causing the problems? Note that several films had this exact problem.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted November 01, 2018 02:53 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is regrettable that tape splices do not seem to last forever. They develop a "hinge" effect which when used in some projectors do not form a nice loop.
This can sometimes cause the loop former to in-operate. In badly maintained projectors the loop former may have become seized due to lack of lubrication. This may cause some damage by the claws to the perforations.

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Maurice

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted November 01, 2018 09:00 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The tape might stretch up a bit,just enough to cause chaos when projected.
Or some projector just doesn't like tape splice at all,regardless how well it was made. [Frown]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 02, 2018 06:05 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurice, thats funny you mention older splicing getting a hinge effect, i found this for the first time on a film we bought. The only splice in the film and although my old NT1 will take almost anything that hits it, the loop restorer works perfectly on this one, i put this through my recently acquired SL2, it performs perfectly, but this one would not restore the loop, i had to stop the machine which was a wee bit annoying. So i am guessing there is an adjustment required in there somewhere.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted November 02, 2018 07:17 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom
It is most important that the setting of the loop restorer position on an Eiki/Elf is correct.
Too far forward and it will be often touched by a perfect loop. Too far backward will not catch any film at all.
These projectors are not my favourite. Last Sunday I returned from Kevin Brown with my NT-2, now fully serviced and all working perfectly. The loop former should be at the 7.30 position.

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Maurice

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 03, 2018 04:46 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On my NT1 it works really well, as you say the lower restorer is set at 7.30 position, on my SL2 it appears to be a bit more involved.It defiantly doesn't seem to restore lower loop loss so i will need to look into it further [Wink]

[ November 04, 2018, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 04, 2018 01:01 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have 2 Elf machines and whenever I hear the loop restorer I have a fear of dread..it usually means that the film keeps running, but with newly torn sprocket holes.

As a device to keep 16mm films running back in the day it was probably a good idea, but these days, if you value a print, a good inspection on rewinds before projection is the best way.

I suspect that poor quality splicing tape may add to the problem with older films. Both my Elfs run good tape splices no problem.

However, I have found that when auto loading it is a good idea to manually adjust the lower loop to give a couple of extra frames clearance of the loop restorer.

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted November 04, 2018 01:23 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, I had thought this tape splice thing was unusual. I was running the films on my trusted and well maintained JAN. It handles cement splices and the usual damage well with its excellent design and 3 claw pull down. I was stunned the tape splices were the culprit. Always learning something new. I used to hate the idea of redoing a tape splice with a cement splice due to the loss of two frames. That is just 1/12 of a second of screen time. Big deal. For me it is cement splices instead of tape.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 04, 2018 03:53 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob, i normally run films on rewind arms before projecting, scilly thing is, because i was winding and cleaning this print the one splice seemed fine. i made the mistake of not actually stopping at the splice and checking it. ive never had any problems with my own splices, i only use decent splicing tapes/rolls, however, it never fails to amuse me at some of the awful splices that i find in prints i buy. fortunately, most of the 16mm prints i have bought have generally been very very good, but my last couple have had cellotape type splices. utterly dreadful and once i pulled it apart the sticky residue was like thick glue. I just dont get some people doing this.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted November 05, 2018 06:08 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom makes a good point.
Resist the urge to put a newly acquired film straight on a projector to view. It could be full of bad joins and damaged perforations.
I always examine a new film very slowly on a rewind and check every inch. I once found a join made with a staple!
It's worth the time and effort so that you know that its eventual run will be faultless and enjoyable.

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Maurice

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 05, 2018 06:37 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We did have a super 8 film turn up once with two staples. I could not believe it until i saw others on here had the same. Luckily they were the only two joins and the rest of the film was fine. Clearly someone who was selling off for a relative or friend and didn't have the correct equipment to do the job properly.

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted November 06, 2018 11:55 AM      Profile for Dave Groves   Email Dave Groves   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It isn't only the lazy or uninformed that staple films. I once hired a feature from a library and found a break in the film was stapled. Fortunately, I never put anything on my machine without checking it, so I discovered it immediately. Can't think what might have happened. Every collector should have a pair of rewinders. It saves a lot of heartache and not a few shows. I always recheck any film from my library before I show it as some go years before seeing a projector, thus allowing tape splices to fail.

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Dave

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 06, 2018 12:07 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agree there David, all my films, even short trailers, are all bench rewound. Also checked & cleaned before anything goes through the projector [Wink]

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted November 06, 2018 11:35 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom I too have been amazed at the incredibly poor splices on prints I have purchased. I have seen many cement splices that look like they were done by scraping the emulsion with something sharp and then applying a boat load of cement and holding the pieces of film pressed together between two fingers...

A good set of rewinds are a must in my book.

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted November 07, 2018 06:25 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I suspect in the days of rented or borrowed films, the film might have broke, and renters did not have splicing equipment. They joined the film break past the gate with whatever they had and viewed the remainder of the film. Then rewound it and returned it without mentioning the break.

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted November 07, 2018 08:26 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speaking about bad splices...

Ever seen anything worse than these? [Eek!]

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Eventually spent hours fixing these mess,ahhhhhh. [Mad]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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