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Author Topic: Digital projection in the cinema
Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 20, 2007 01:56 PM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just spent an interesting afternoon at a Vue Cinema which has one Digital projector installed, and also has several 35mm projs. The projectionist said in the 12 months they had it installed the digital had only been used twice. My friend explained he had 16mm and super 8 as do I, so its interesting that the latest digital was not being used a great deal in this Vue cinema.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted March 20, 2007 03:44 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here in Orlando we like to think of ourselves as on the leading edge of the entertainment industry. Some in fact call Orlando 'Hollywood East'. So it would not be unexpected to find out that digital projection is rapidly taking over 35mm in Orlando. But a scan of todays movie listings in the 'Orlando Sentinel' shows that out of the 3 or 4 hundred screens in the area NOT ONE is currently showing digital projection. This includes a brand new, just opened Muliplex in downtown Orlando. So DP is not even on the map here. Now some theatres here do in fact have digital projectors, which they use for pre-show commercials and some trailers, but the quality is so obviously inferior to 35mm that when 35mm hits the screen the difference is palpable. Last year one cinema here did show King Kong in digital, and it it was pretty awful.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

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From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 20, 2007 06:05 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What we are forgeting here are how films are MADE. prety much most films are mastered at 2K in digital anyway. The digital projection will always be closer than 35 mm. because the digital files are optimised that way. To say that 'Pirates of the caribian' is beter on 35mm than Digital projetion is nonsense. However that is not to say that on 35mm WHEN DONE RIGHT cannot look stonking!

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Graham Sinden
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From: Kent, UK
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 - posted March 20, 2007 06:08 PM      Profile for Graham Sinden   Email Graham Sinden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As much as we all like film being on this forum, we all have to admit that sometime in the future all films will be digitally projected in the cinemas. It might take 10, 20 or even 30 years but eventually everything will be digital. Im a film lover myself but even I have realised that film is dying a slow death and will eventually dissapear from the mainstream. Professional digital projectors will get a lot better and cheaper and cinemas will all take them up in the thousands. Movies will be beamed overnight via satelite to cinemas across the world and stored on Hard disks and can be shown the next day. Obviously copy protection needs to be encrypted within the data to stop joe public recieving them but when this is done it will save money distributing films to every cinema. Im afraid the new age of the cinema is just around the corner, just keep a tight hold of that super 8 projector before that dissapears.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

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From: Amersham
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 - posted March 20, 2007 06:18 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the end of the day it is all about 'bums on seats' in a darkened room as a communal experience. No different than 'The great train robbery' was 100 years ago. It is all about storytelling folks!

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted March 21, 2007 03:53 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David
I doubt that here in NZ that we get better prints than anywhere else, on average I handle about 70 to 80 features a year and in general the quality is pretty good certainly some prints are better than others, but in saying that I doubt that would put me off going to the cinema, in all the years of not just projecting but going to the movies, not just here in NZ but in the UK, I have never once found the need to complain, from the grubby and I mean grubby, smoke ridden cinema I went to in Glasgow in the 50s, [Roll Eyes] to the multi-plex of today, I still enjoy sitting there with like minded others watching a movie.

Its a pity that for those with vested financial interest in video projection, that the only way ahead for them is to rubbish 35mm, something that has given so much enjoyment to so many, [Smile] me for example. [Wink]

Graham.

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David Park
Master Film Handler

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From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted March 21, 2007 04:18 AM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Would love to return to the picture palaces of the 50's.
Wow, the New Victoria ( Gaumont) Bradford that was a cinema, and Theatre and Wurlizer organ.
http://www.kingsdr.demon.co.uk/cinemas/newvic.htm#origin

--------------------
Regards,
David

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Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Kent, UK
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 - posted March 21, 2007 08:24 AM      Profile for Graham Sinden   Email Graham Sinden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the end of the day it will all be decided by money. The big studios and the multiplexes will make a decision based purely on economic sense rather than peoples opinions. I would guess that most people (around 90%) care more about the heating and prices rather than the quality of the image on screen. As ive stated before the most important factor is that you enjoy the film and the evening out with a nice drink as well.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted March 22, 2007 04:24 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello, my name is Lars Pettersson, I´m a film collector in Sweden and I´ve been enjoying reading this forum for many years but haven´t as yet gotten around to posting myself, but here goes... As I´ve understood, many members of the forum have serious insight into how things work in this industry, I myself have some insight into filmmaking at least in this part of the world. Here in Sweden, since a few months back, all projection of pre-feature commercials in cinemas is now done with VPs. The results are -as an old film buff I´m reluctant to say- quite good. I´d say the difference between the VP-projected commercials and the following 35 mm feature, feels like -not night and day, but rather- the film feels perhaps 30 -40 % percent better (obviously depending on the print, etc). This difference is probably lost on most spectators. [Frown]

Also, when new features are produced in this country, the trend in latter years has been to do a digital intermediate at 2K -sometimes even slightly less than 2K- resolution and produce prints from that. Most of these films are originally shot on 35mm or super16.
One nice thing that has occured lately is that filmmakers have "rediscovered" [Smile] shooting on 35mm and printing directly off the original material, no digital step inbetween, as this obviously yields far superior resolution, colour depth, etc -and can be about £15 000 cheaper, since there´s no need to go to and from the digital realm [Smile] . These would of course be films mainly about human beings, not too many CGI effects... [Wink]

So let´s hope that the change to digital projection at least won´t happen too quickly, as it´s likely that striking 35mm prints may die out very quickly once 90% of all distribution is digital. Current prices for 35mm prints depend very much on the fact that producers order 50 -100 prints for their films (or several thousand for, say, Spiderman II). If they only asked for one -especially in a future where most distribution would be digital- that one print could well cost ten times what they now pay, and therefore they would never order it. [Frown]

Best Wishes
Lars

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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From: New York, NY, USA
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 - posted March 22, 2007 09:12 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lars,

Well said.........and welcome to the Forum.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 23, 2007 03:54 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The above is very interesting.

The digital proj I viewed in the cinema which had been in place 12 months had only been used for two films in that period.

Don’t think it bodes well for the new medium main stream, but time will tell. The projectionist I spoke to when looking at the machine felt that they may well be out of a job as the projectors may be fed by a phone line and left on all day with programmes timed remotely.

At present the projector I viewed was fed digital video from a conventional hard drive which was part of the projection unit itself. The problem for me personally is that a visit to the cinema will never be the same knowing I am watching electronic pictures and not that organic film look. But I am not the masses, and I doubt if The Vue chain will cater for movie goers who prefer to see film projected.

Through my work I got involved with the Digital Development Agency and I can tell which way all of this is going. Businesses are being targeted to get into the digital revolution and expected to integrate in the digital environment.

It has always been my vue (get it) that in years to come one of the few places you may well be able to see film projected will either be at a special professional screening, or in your own home as cine film enthusiasts. Digital is not good for cine film fans, but it may well do the home projection of cine films a great deal of good as it could spark more interest in cine as one of the few places to see it and get your hands on experience.

Just a thought.

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted March 23, 2007 04:21 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
What we are forgeting here are how films are MADE. prety much most films are mastered at 2K in digital anyway.
Sorry, but that's not correct: Most films made in the last two or three years are mastered at 4K, only low budget and independent films are still mastered at 2k. Hence a 35mm-projector will have a better picture than a 2k-DP. It'll even have a better picture than a 4k-projector since the DP will use a lossy compression for the video-stream, most older DPs aren't able to provide the intendended colours, ... .

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 24, 2007 04:07 AM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Er I think you will find it is true and I should know because that is my job!
(Look me up on imdb.)
4k is only started to be recently (Casino Royale was done at 2K) and the digital cinema spec is 2k. 2048x 1080. 4K pipelines involve 4x the data than 2 and is expensive.
Films are still made the old fashioned way at the lab also. Christopher Nolan prefers this still.

Regards,

Stuart Fyvie.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted March 24, 2007 10:39 AM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello everyone.

I´m very surprised to read that Casino Royale was mastered at 2K resolution -why? They could certainly afford 4K!
Here in town when someone produces a film shot in 35 mm and prints are struck the old fashioned way from 35 mm masters, and the film requires a digital insert, that insert will be done in 4K. Intercutting original 35mm material and 2K shots doesn´t really help promote digital cinema... [Wink]

Actually, a friend at the lab told me that "if someone had invented 35mm film today, then everyone would have gone crazy over it -this is fantastic quality, we MUST use THIS!" [Wink]

Best Wishes
Lars

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006


 - posted March 24, 2007 10:49 AM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post 
SPEILBERG WANTS TO USE FILM FOREVER.HE HAS NO QUALMS ABOUT HIS COMPANY-IE AMBLIN USING DIGTAL,BUT THE MASTER PERFERES FILM;AT ALL TIMES.UNLIKE LUCAS...ANDY.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted March 24, 2007 11:24 AM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Way to go, Steven! [Smile]

Best Wishes

Lars

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 24, 2007 12:18 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
4k film outputs are done but they are uprezzed from 2, 4K are rarely done all the way
because of costs and data issues. Especially with multi fx houses like a Harry Potter. You are dealing with literally Terra flops worth of information.
Aquisition on FILM willl be done for a good while yet as digital cameras can't match the quality. Tim Burton tested for Sweeney Todd but decided to shoot film because it still gave the best result. As for projection, you will find that the average release print
in 35 mm will be lucky to resolve 1K worth of information because of optical losses.....

Stuart.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted March 24, 2007 02:48 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lars
Welcome to the forum, your comments, "If someone had invented 35mm film today then everyone would have gone crazy over it, this is fantastic quality we MUST use THIS!", Lars I cant think of a better way to put it. [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] . brilliant [Smile]

Graham.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted March 24, 2007 02:55 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello again.

Stuart, when you write "the average release print
in 35 mm ... resolves 1K worth of information" surely you mean mass-produced prints struck from nth generation masters? Otherwise, why would Spielberg and Burton, among others, want to shoot on 35mm stock if 90% of the quality is lost in the printing process? Where I live, films produced in the traditional way are printed master/dupe from the camera negative, with some prints (for showcase theatres, etc) struck from the camera negative. Loss of quality should be nigh imperceptible.
I´m sure resolution can be down to 1K in a 35mm print after dozens of master/dupe-generations, but if the cinema industry won´t offer audiences something they cannot get in their own homes, why should people go to the cinema?

I believe one argument from those who promote digital cinema runs something like "outside of the big cities people don´t know what 35mm can look like, to them 2k VP will be an improvement."

I´m actually a bit optimistic about the future of traditional film. The quality of camera raw stock has improved tremendously over the past twenty years, much because video technologies have improved as well, so film HAD to improve to survive. The people who stand to MAKE a few billion dollars a year by abandoning film are not the same as those who stand to LOSE about the same amount. And as soon as a product is completely digital, piracy becomes a major headache...

Best Wishes

Lars

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted March 24, 2007 03:15 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When was the last time you heard people coming out of a movie theater complaining about the quality of 35mm film? Never, in my experience. The fact is 35mm delivers everything, and more, that audiences expect in terms of theater picture quality. So from the consumers point of view there is, and never has been, any pressing need to go digital in the cinema. As someone has already pointed out, digital cinema is being persued solely to drive up studio profits, not because it offers anything better than traditional 35mm film, which it clearly does not.
I for one am getting very tired of cheaply made digital movies, usually with hand held cameras that never stay still (whatever happened to tripod's?) Thank God it is possible to re-run the films of Hollywood's Golden Age, and appreciate the production values of the great studio's at their zenith.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 24, 2007 03:53 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lars,
it would be ideal if all prints were struck from the camera or DI negative direct, unfortunatly this is not the case when dealing with a blockbuster like Harry potter.
You are looking at at least 10,000 35mm prints WORLDWIDE same day release.
This involves multiple IN/IP proceses. As well as the anamorphic print generation. (For a comparison test , a digital scope extraction from a super 35mm negative will always yeild better results than a lab process.) This obviously degrades the image. With Digital Intermediate, and what I mean is a digital grade /post process in that you shoot out to as many digital negatives as you can, this by passes a lot of Lab copying and you can get a better result. (Regardless whether it is 35mm or digital projection,)
The last Pirates of the caribean was done this way and the 35mm projection looked stunning.
I am not having a go at film, for shooting, Film is by far the prefered choice on a quality as well as a practical level. But for distribution Digital projection isn't as clear cut, 35mm projection when done right can look fantastic, but there is so many ways it can go wrong and it is a real skill and craft to be done right. Unfortunatly, a lot of corners are being cut these days in the industry.(check out the film tech forums on this host to see how complicated and difficult it is these days!)

Regards,
Stuart.

And I still enjoy my GS 1200!

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted March 24, 2007 04:00 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul
There was one film made a few years ago called "The Blair Witch Project" I think it was a student made film, the camera movement was terrible, you could not look at the screen without feeling motion sickness coming on. I remember reading somewhere that when director William Wyler watched Carol Reeds film "The third Man", that he sent the director a "Spirit Level" as a present, not sure if it was well recieved.

Graham.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted March 24, 2007 04:29 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Stuart!

"a digital scope extraction from a super 35mm negative will always yeild better results than a lab process"

Ah, yes! But the clever folks over here are "rediscovering" shooting in 4-perf anamorphic Cinemascope AND printing traditionally... Yummy! [Wink]
Scope from super 35 is not a very large negative, should be about ten times larger than a super 8 frame. But you´re absolutely right that if someone requires 10 000 prints digital intermediates will INCREASE the quality of those prints, if anything.

Also, imagine how many people would be fired from the film labs if 35mm projection disappears overnight [Frown]
A sad aspect of digital cinema projection, as Paul Adsett pointed out, is that from the audience´s perspective, no one ever asked for it... [Wink]

Please let´s not fight, I think we´re both on the same side [Wink]

Best Wishes
Lars

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 24, 2007 06:15 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we are both reading from the same page too!

Cheers,

Stuart

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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 - posted March 25, 2007 04:51 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't see a fight here at all. I see a very well mannered and interesting discussion. Well done chaps.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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