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Author
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Topic: The Death of Vinyl (or...all my hobbies have gone to digital)
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 10, 2009 01:53 AM
Hi all,
I have three main hobbies.
Of course the first one is FILM.... and as you have known, it has gone to digital since long time ago... There is no question about it.
My no. 2 hobby is a train collection. This has also gone to digital, where Locos can now be played on the same track without need to worry they bump each other. It because the digital control sends a different time code to each Loco. In fact, with a Digital controller, on the same track one Loco can go forward and the other go backward!! Many Train collectors now prefer to use digital Loco and controller for the sake of this simplicity.
My last hobby is the vinyl collection. This has also gone to digital since long time ago. There are several communities still playing vinyls but compared to digital format, they are not comparable.
But what made me so optimistic yesterday not because of the existence of that small community of vinyl lovers, but because DJ communities were the other side of people who kept the vinyl industry growing and preserved.
Yesterday, I was thinking that music could go to digital, but all DJs, Night Clubs, Radios would still use vinyls because vinyls could not be replaced by CD due the use of scratches and other tricks done by DJs.
Indeed, there were CDJ marketed to compete DJ Turntable but the quality of scratches were different because (the most important issue), when using CD, the DJs couldn't directly see the track they were going to play, so it's hard for them to do scratching like what they did with vinyl.
(BTW, fyi I've been DJing as well at my bedroom, that's why I knew that stuff above)
So, I felt save about vinyls industries that they would be in this universe for long time.
But that was yesterday,.... until someone finally invented this...
(Serato Scratch Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSVqh6ryLho
This gear replaces the actual vinyl by playing all digital music on laptop by using the benefit of Turntable it self. So basically, the vinyls are not used except the turntable. With this set up the DJ can see the track (which actually only an imaginary track because everything is on laptop). So what was the problem with CDJ is now solved.
There ois also now what the so called "Vinyl Record Timecode":
http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-Rane-Serato-Scratch-Live-Vinyl-Record-Timecode_W0QQite mZ380103687921
So, I can say that this will be "The Death of Vinyl industry" as a whole (OK there will be still a limited numbers of vinyl, like what we have in this 8mm world, but no longer as a mass production).
Look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myVqRhy5NNA
The same concern is also mentioned by DJs there.....
It is so sad, especially for me ... :-(
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Winbert
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 10, 2009 09:35 AM
(ps: on the other thread Michael has also given an alert ebout Digital Book vs Printed Paper. As you may have known, many printed newspapers are also closing their business and move to web page service)
quote:
but none of those things you mention have "gone" to Digital. They are ALL still ALIVE and WELL in their original form.
Martin, yes you are right that they are still alive.
But what I meant was the vinyl industry will have gone sooner. Industry means mass production. So in the future, vinyl may still be alive but only for a small market, likewise our 8mm/16mm films.
To date, we cannot say there is an 8mm film industry, because Derann and CFC are only doing a small business here.
But for vinyl, at least until now, we can still say there is an industry because of DJ things over there are their big market. Every day thousands of tunes have to be printed on vinyls because CD cannot compete the vinyl touch. But remember DJs use vinyl not because of the sound quality issue but more to the technical stuff where DJ can make a cue directly on vinyl surface. Before, with CDJ, DJs could not do this because they cannot see the tracks (grooves) on CD. But now, with the time coded vinyl they can "see" the groove and make a cue like what they do on vinyl (they virtually see the grooves but actually the software reads data on laptop)
Because of this, DJs will slowly move to this software because two main things, namely:
1. Price wise is cheaper to buy digital format
2. Simplicity where DJs don't need to bring hundreds of LPs
(The audiophilist are concerned with the sound quality of digital format, but DJ are not, as long as they can here "boom" and "bass" loudly).
The above Digital Turntable I mentioned previously, is just like comparing Compass vs GPS in our daily live, where Compass can only point the North or South direction, while in fact, GPS is not only doing that, but it can tell us at which intersection we have to turn left/right.
So, there is no any reasonable explanation to keep using Compass in the city if the price of a GPS is cheaper. And there is no point for DJs to bring their vinyls if software can replace it with a better touch.
In this situation, the industry will longer print vinyls and left digital takes over. And this is an initial signal of the death of vinyl INDUSTRY.
Of course, a small company (like Derann in 8mm case) may keep printing Vinyl but the price will go up significantly.
cheers,
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Winbert
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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted August 10, 2009 11:02 AM
Winbert,
I work in broadcast TV, and as much as everyone wants to think that it's all High Definition now, it's not true.
The old formats hang on stubbornly, simply because they still are good enough for the job at hand. In some cases I shoot with cameras that are 10-15 years old; they work very well and the footage goes on the air. It's all about what is needed.
At home, I go with the "so what if it is outdated, it is good quality" approach.
I have about 500 LPs, a lot of cassettes, a bunch of 78s and a fair number of VHS and Beta tapes (and my 8mm and 16mm films.) 2 years ago I bought a high-quality reel-to-reel recorder.
They all play fine, regardless of how much the world says they should be landfill by now.
What I think has happened more than anything else is that the TOLERANCE for older things has diminished radically, through the power of advertizing.
It didn't use to be that there was such a sharp cutoff for older things, where you were looked at like a caveman for having or using them.
The relentless 'new is better' drumbeat lives off the notion that older things "pollute" the idea of wanting the latest, so it must be ridiculed and looked down upon.
The real irony for me is that while we supposedly are getting "better and better" technology, the collective appreciation of arts in general (music, films) is getting less and less; it is just increasingly becoming background noise.
When I put on a record or tape or film, I sit and pay attention to it (and I know you do too); it's not a casual thing, like using an IPod.
One of the best things in life is to just enjoy what you enjoy and not worry about what people say. Because a lot of the time, you will suddenly meet someone who enjoys it too. Like all of us on these forums. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(My Marklin HO trains are in storage, just waiting for the day when I have the space to put them up again..... ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
Claus.
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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 10, 2009 04:23 PM
Claus, Bill, Kurt, Martin and others, I am on the same boat with you that I love vinyls.
But the reality is here... yes that is true that vinyls are still readily available, but (I believe) it is because the real big market does still exist, i.e those DJs.
But since now, technology has invented digital vinyl or vinyl time code or whatsoever, the DJ will slowly leave this analog vinyl because of 2 reasons I mentioned previously.
Remember, as I mentioned above, most DJs are not die hard vinyl users like us who love the quality of analog sound, but they more look to the technical benefits of vinyl for DJ tricks that could not be done by CD before. But since now CDJ can do what vinyl can do, I believe DJ will shift to CD, eventually.
If DJs do not buy vinyls, therefore it is only us who are going to buy LPs.
By then, the price of vinyl will be sky rocketing and some of us will prevent to buy any LPs but more selective, some of us will definitely stop buying LPs because it is out of their budget and will only buy 2nd hand LP.
Finally, there only selective albums will be released on Vinyl, and furthermore, there should be a collective request made by collectors before a particular album will go to be pressed.
This is a scenario that we have been dealing with 8mm films so far.
cheers,
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Winbert
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Joe Caruso
Film God
Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 11, 2009 05:38 AM
Study it; LP shows abound, especially a major one in Manhattan and one on Route 22 in Springfield NJ - My "Antiques Trader" lists dozen of expos and related shows - The collector/dealer exchange abounds - True, "new" product is fledging but being made, film is very active and as along as we command/demand its releases, Derann, and others will so oblige. I feel we don't have anything to fret over. The markets for these and other hobbies persevere - Take gum card collecting, courtesy of "The Wrapper" and Les Davis - There are large strides in that both here and abroad, also the quarterly mag "Non-Sport Update" - Things slow down with tech changes, but the basics will always be here - You can't beat the original methods of creating levels of art forms - Importantly, when anyone sees a nicely-boxed or freshly-cellophaned item in film, LP, toy, card or whatever, don't we all appreciate that all the more and want it to continue? We do and it will - Shorty
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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006
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posted August 11, 2009 07:39 AM
Hi,
I can understand Winbert's concern:
In the late 80's and early 90's one of the main topics of SciFi was "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace". Back then everyone was laughing about that idea as "such a thing would never exist as nobody would use it". When seeing older films or reading older books about "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace", everyone is still laughing for the same reason. But the fact is: "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace" is already here:- Instead of playing with real model-trains, RC-cars, RC-helicopters, ... and creating real models, "everyone" is now using simulations "as it's cheaper and as it require less space".
- Instead of sitting together in one room and playing chess, RPGs, risk, poker, ... , "everyone" is now playing online-games.
- Instead of communicating face-to-face or via letters, newspapers, ..., "everything" is now digital/virtual: VoIP, skype, eMails, ePapers, eBooks, ...
- Instead of having the AV-information stored on a medium (LP, film-reel, vhs-cartridge, CD, DVD, ...), the data now only comes in digital form from "a source". E.g. one of my friends now has got a "streaming client" (with server). Since then it's unclear to me whether the film/music comes from a CD/DVD in the server, from the server's hard-drive or from anywhere in the net (internet-radio, youtube, virtual-video-stores, ...).
- ...
So it's a little bit like the whole "real" world has been turned into a virtual one where the only existing things are bits and bytes...
... nevertheless the "real" world still exists and as a "real" human being, I still like to deal with other "real" humans in reality and to collect "real" things (Super8-films, LGB-trains, ...) that I can touch, squeeze, break, alter, damage, ... .
Jörg
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 11, 2009 08:57 AM
Along this line of thinking (cyberspace and all), I saw a 60 minutes report about how they have actually linked the human brain to computers. A man completely paralyzed, can now speak by computer. It takes around 15 seconds for each letter to be transferred from the brain to the computer and then it's spoken out loud by the computer, (in one of those cheesy Stephan Hawkings style voices) ...
But yet, amazing. As this technology grows, a more complete and greater ability or link will be possible between the brain and
a computer.
Yes, it does have it's scary side, but think of all the possibilities.
Now, back to our LPs!
With all these new LPs being manufactured, are there any companies that are releasing brand new Lp players out there?
I mention this as the technology of the old players is, well, getting quite aged in most cases. Brand new LP players means that all our old albums from yesterday will still be playable for a lot longer than we originally thought possible!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 11, 2009 10:00 AM
Claus Harding had a really good point earlier on that really hit home with me ...
" The real irony for me is that while we supposedly are getting "better and better" technology, the collective appreciation of arts in general (music, films) is getting less and less; it is just increasingly becoming background noise. "
As a recording artist I, like so many others, put a great deal of work into the recording. I was very fond of symphonic/orchestral rock, so I would lay out layer after layer of strings, horn sections, timpani drums, ect. along with the standard rock-n-roll instruments and in most cases it was quite memorable. Well, at least to me.
Now, of course, the artist has far more fondness for their own artistry, but I decided to share my gift with those on my college campus at the time.
I knew the dude who ran the cafe and asked him if he could play my CD over the speaker system. An easy sell, as he liked my music. I then sat down to see what the reaction would be.
People would look up briefly and say ...
"What's that?"
"Oh, I dunno. So, Like, are you going out with Tom?"
My music was nothing more than "background filler" in their lives. This piece of work with great passion, excitement,
life, just something disposable to them.
Though I will always love my music and other forms of art, I was really given a wake-up call on that day as to the true position of the artist in the average persons life.
Don't get me wrong, as I don't think that the artist need be worshipped.
In some ways, it was heart-breaking.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 11, 2009 11:52 AM
Osi, Paul and Michael,
Some people have really a sentimental feeling with LP but cannot handle the way to keep the LPs (cleaning, anti-static, don't touch the surface, etc). So some recording companies (especially those in Japan) release what the so-called "Mini LP".
This is a CD with the cover exactly is in the same size of LP cover (12"). So they still store the CD like the way we store our LP.
For example, you can see here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WES-MONTGOMERY-TRIO-JAPAN-MINI-LP-CD-1959-GUITAR-JAZZ_W0QQi temZ370240263340
Now, with those Time Code vinyl, I can imagine, the trend will go much further that people can really sense the vinyl touch, i.e. by virtually placing a time code vinyl on a Turntable and put the needle on this vinyl. It is really what we do with our own TT. But the different is that it basically plays from a CD/Laptop/computer/hard drive or whatever.
So time changes....
(ps: we only need to have one time-code vinyl which the price is around $15)
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Winbert
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Antonis Galanakis
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 191
From: Europe Greece Athens
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted August 14, 2009 02:30 AM
I believe that is up to you to keep you hobby on, work with it, live with it and pass it to your younger family members. For example my hobby from 1985 and my work now is computer software programming and computer, network and internet web page support. BUT I am still in love with my old records 33 and 45 rpm and I have a good collection. I have three Teppaz portable record players, an AMI 200 jukebox, a Sony reel to reel tape player and much more. Those “gadgets” are not for show off, but for my pleasure. I have two sons. One of them is asking me to play my 45rpm records all the time.
In the hobby of Super 8mm films I am only one (1) year. I really love it, and my wife, my kids, my friends also love it. I am going to keep this hobby as films exist.
Conclusion. I have everything I might need in digital format easily. Remember? This is my job. I have Terabytes of data at my house, music, videos, TV series, and movies. BUT the ones I love most are the analog ones. As I told you is in your hands.
AND DO NOT FORGET. When you are listening music from record you have one more sense working. Touch. You have to touch the record sleeve to take the record out, you have to touch the record to put it on the record player, you have to touch the record player to turn it on and put the needle on etc.
You do not just hear the music, you touch it also.
Greetings
Antonis.
PS You can visit and see a small part of my "analog life" in
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2001548&id=1300698462&l=80a022103b (no need to be a FB member) and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30477054@N03/
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 14, 2009 11:04 AM
quote:
AND DO NOT FORGET. When you are listening music from record you have one more sense working. Touch. You have to touch the record sleeve to take the record out, you have to touch the record to put it on the record player, you have to touch the record player to turn it on and put the needle on etc.
Antonis,... that's exactly what those Japanese inventors are thinking, and that's why they release Mini-LP. Further more with their new inventions, now people can TOUCH the (time-code) vinyl, touch the record player, turn it, and put the needle on it. While actually the music come from a digital source....hehehee.
WE never understand with their inventions, especially, when they found electric pet!!! (i.e cat, dog, etc in our hand held, that we have to feed them on certain times...)
But I agree with you how we keep our hobbies alive. I never angry if my kid touches the projector (because I never have the fancy ones). I am just thinking if he make a damage on it, I will just go back to Ebay and get another replacement.
cheers,
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Winbert
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted August 16, 2009 05:51 PM
Winbert, have a look here;
project-audio.com
linn.co.uk/music_systems_sondek_LP12
I have owned a Linn LP12 for many years and worked for a time in the hi-fi trade when I first started my working life. It was generally understood within the trade even then (late 1980's - early 1990's) that CD was really, well, a bit rubbish (16 bit! HELLO ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) we're talking early 1980's crappy home computer level here!!!)
Even with the best CD transport and digital to analogue convertors, CD just never even got close to vinyl on a good turntable, with a good arm and a good cartridge (and believe me I spent good money trying to prove this wrong!)
Fact is that (as I'm sure you appreciate) whilst a good turntable can cost a lot of cash and, in many ways, like our beloved 8mm, a lot of care to get just right; the right arm, cartridge, amplifier and speakers, etc... it will simply blow CD away. Sad fact is, of course, convenience is the key to mass market and quality must always take second place.
Good turntables and good vinyl simply DO NOT crackle and pop...they just sound great, but they cost...and they need love .
To this day when we have guests round and put a bit of music on (the speakers are in the front room, the turntable, amp hidden in the next room) I swear, even when the music is low level and we are just chatting someone will say, "who is this; what album is this; this sounds great...etc., etc..." The discussion always turns to the music, because that is what the Linn is playing...music, not background noise...
Vinyl, film...it isn't the technology, it's what you do with it.
But as for the future of vinyl releases (and super 8??), well...yes Winbert, sadly, as with so many things, the future may be digital...boo
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