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Author
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Topic: The Elimination of Film ....
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 01, 2009 09:18 AM
This morning, I saw the advertisement for the re-re-re-re-re-re-re-release of "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" (was that enough "re's"? Probably not).
I saw the images from the restored film, and I would have to re-name it a "moving story" and not a film. I'll explain.
The term "Film" is tossed around to mean, in some circles, a story on film. That is, the term "film" means, essentially, "story". For instance, when folks say, "Lets go see a film", they mean story, and not just onberving a piece of celluloid.
In this case, however, it can't really be called a "restored FILM". There is no film in the process at all, especially in the case of this "Snow White". It is a matter of bytes of information in a computer file, and digitally copied onto blu-ray discs. The film has been completely eliminated.
In fact, from what I saw in the advertisement, there was no evidence of celluloid in the process. All grain or any evidence of film, is eliminated.
In fact, what is left, is what, perhaps, (if Disney could have had it), exactly what he would have chosen. We are down to the actual cels and painted backgrounds, along with the only part that may have vestiges of the original "film", the soundtrack, and even that is debatable.
Now as a lover of fine animation, I can understand an appreciation for this type of presentation. Personally, I also find it slightly distracting, as I see more and more of the imperfections in the original artwork. More "jitter" than was noticeable before. A sheen that just doesn't really seem to belong there.
My argument would probably fall on many a flat ear today, and that's not bad either, as we are progressively becoming a "film-less society", but I do feel that restoration can actually go too far.
I alreadsy have the two disc DVD special edition of "Snow White", and that one already had that aspect to it, but I'm sure that it will feel that much more distanced from a filmic experience.
Even with all the improvements that have been made on the film, I actually do prefer to see "Snow White" the way people saw it back in the 1930's. We certainly do not see it as they did back then .. today (on blu-ray).
Some would say, "We see it better than they did back then."
I would argue against that, personally.
What are your thoughts?
By the way, on the other side of the coin, I would rather see a digital animmated film in a digital format, instead of film.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 01, 2009 02:58 PM
There were a lot of problems with the original "Snow White". During the "first" restoration when Kodak first opened their restoration facility in Hollywood, we had a special SMPTE meeting there and were walked through the facility and saw the various stages that "Snow White" was undergoing. As I recall this was back in 1985 or so.
The original photography suffered from a lot a color problems from variations in photofloods used to illuminate the cells. There were a lot of cell reflections, paint problems, and lot and lots of dirt photographed in from the cells.
They were very careful at that stage to NOT take out the grain and all the dirt. In fact we saw a scene that they had redone because the technique had been "too heavy handed".
I'm looking forward to seeing the new version since we've made so many strides in restoration in the last 20 years. BTW, for what it's worth, Disney has and supplied both original cells and model sheets and color samples which were used in that restoration. So what was produced then was closer to what the artists and Disney wanted on the screen and removed the limits of the 1939 technology of Technicolor at that time.
So while this isn't the "original" film, I wouldn't take the same hard line against it until I get a chance to see it and see what they've done.
Few people will ever get the chance to Visit the Disney Archives (a hidden location BTW) and see the original art side by side with the restoration, but it's an eye opener.
One should note (and just ask George Lucas) no film is ever finished, they're just completed and released. There are always compromises and things everyone concerned with the production would want better or to change if time or money permited. Today time and money permit.
John
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 01, 2009 05:32 PM
I'm certainly not against film restoration. I remember seeing the restored, (well, for what could be done at that time) with Orson Welles troubled classic "Othello". The film, shot on many continents and piece-meal (that's an understatement!) looked 100 times better than the terrible copies that existed even on 16MM.
They actually re-recorded the whole soundtrack music in dolby surround and the two, sandwiched together, (music and restored film) were outstanding. At that time, it was the best restoration I had ever seen.
Note: Worst two "restorations" ... "Hawaii" and "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" In both cases, they took terribly faded lost footage and put it right back in ... terrible! It was so obvious!
As I stated before, I would much rather see, for instance, Toy Story, in complete digital format instead of film, as then I can enjoy all the craft that went into the digital process with the absolute clarity.
I must also admit, I do like seeing a literal cel straight to digital DVD. I bought the latest restoration of Bambi on the 2 disc DVD and it did look lovely. I'm still marveling over the great leaps and strides that Disney took from even Snow White to Bambi, and in only a period of less than five years. Amazing!
Yet, I still muse and sigh at seeing the lack of grain and such distractions, as most folks today would label them.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Barrie Didham
Film Handler
Posts: 67
From: Dunedin,New Zealand
Registered: Sep 2009
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posted October 03, 2009 02:47 AM
Hi all.
I often feel let down by todays tech,even if i own it myself.
The Laserdisc of Joseph M.Schencks Hallelujah,Im a Bum really out shines the DVD,but no doubt one day it will be given the Blu-Ray treatment,if any of you have seen the Laserdisc of George Lucas,s THX 1138 and then watched the DVD,you,ll understand where im coming from,sometime i think we go to far or not far enough when remastering these storys to the digital age.
But i cant help that warm fuzzy feeling i get when i see a 16mm or 8mm print with all its faults on the big screen,there is just something so alive with these formats that even my HD-Panasonic projector cant give me,even with my 100X250 inch screen.
Though with all said,HD does suck you into its massive field of view and hues of Black that are very hard to get from any other format from a home setup.
Barrie
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Between Heaven and Hell there will always be Super8
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 03, 2009 09:49 AM
John ...
I have only seen the advertisement for the yet again revamped Snow White, and that, on a ole fashioned 27 inch
Sanyo, (We don't shell out a lot for conventional TV in our house!)
What I can say for it, (and we do get a digital signal of course, so we aren't seeing it on BR), is that it really does look like its cel animation placed on top of the backgrounds, which does have it's charm and does let the artists full briliance shine through.
Paul, when you get your copy, could you per-chance put up a screen capture or two from it?
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 210
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008
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posted October 03, 2009 08:11 PM
This is a contentious issue. The restoration of most films I have seen on DVD or blu-ray has been an improvement on the last commercially available media, i.e. Video tape or laserdisc, and I say most, there are exceptions as pointed out already. What I will say is bad registration on Technicolor prints is common place; look at the DVD set of Walt Disney Treasures. The few cartoons that have been restored shine out against the un-restored mud baths of poor colour reproduction and very bad registration.
If anything has been lost through the process, then for most of us it will be the dirt, scratches, and poor reg. For those of us who look deeper it will be the romance. I think Disney and other notable cartoonists would love what has been done. I wish somebody would come and restore my film of my children to the degree that they have with Disney’s Pinocchio, I would be well pleased.
Osi, I still tape things on the TV, although it's now done through my Sky+ box. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Chris Quinn Rides again.
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