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Author Topic: Snow White Blu ray
Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 15, 2014 09:44 AM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am so sure, if I ever saw a film on your digital projector, I will see it stutter. Watch closely on the panning shots on for example lamp posts or straight walls and so on, if you don't see the stutter, good for you, but I have yet to not see it on digital. It's not at all as bad on film, though fast panning shots do get a bit too. I found a new passion when I started with film again and I actually feel sick when watching new films and digital video. Film is estetically (spelling?) much nicer than the coldness of digital. Streaming is soon the only way to see video and I will happily rewatch my films instead when that day comes. I tolerate video too, but love film

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Paul Barker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 395
From: Lancashire, England
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted July 15, 2014 10:19 AM      Profile for Paul Barker   Email Paul Barker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi vidar. depends on your projector. more than happy with digital.superb picture quality. but i also like film, for diferent reasons though. each to his own i suppose.

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 15, 2014 10:26 AM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't have an expensive projector myself, I bought a BenQ W1300 ... But I expect the Odeon cinemas doesn't use that cheap projectors and they all suffer from this "stutter". I agree that the digital picture is clean, but it's so sterile and agree with some collectors that call the picture plastic looking. Lifeless. So, yes, we can agree to have different opinions here :-)

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted July 15, 2014 10:28 AM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although its about Dumbo it could be of interest especially the bit about Steamboat Willie Dumbo link

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Luis Caramelo
Master Film Handler

Posts: 494
From: Funchal
Registered: Feb 2011


 - posted July 15, 2014 11:11 AM      Profile for Luis Caramelo   Email Luis Caramelo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi!friends this inssue still sppling alot of diferente opinions.i,m also a film lover but i must admit,if digital didn.t exists we were not able to see some many of films we love,all the features i got in color i have the same title in dvd,just to watch the diferences,about snow white i like more the picture of mine super 8 feature instead dvd,i think dvd it,s more close to film than bluray(this my opinion).
like dvd/super 8,they good and bad prints

i got classics in dvd collection they look stunning in my 10ft screen,and i must say some digests in super 8 i got from the same titles they don,t look so good

i know we could be seating here all day .at the end the conclusion should be the same,

to finish,between a good print of super 8 and the same title in dvd,i preferer film,because that,s history of cinema more than a century ,film it,s the way it was concebid and show to the audiences.
the natural look even not to sharper.and the color saturation,etc
but like i said digital allows to restore what it,s missing already---

regards:
luis caramelo

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Paul Barker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 395
From: Lancashire, England
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted July 15, 2014 12:03 PM      Profile for Paul Barker   Email Paul Barker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi vidar. have to disagree. they do not all have stutter as you call it. definately non noticable on mine.and as to picture quality well, glorious sharp colourful images the likes i never thought i would ever be able to project in my owm home. but thats progress. by the way LG electronics have announced that by 2017 they will be selling a 60 inch 4K HD folding tv screen that will roll up and fit in a 3cm tube. the mind bogles at what is ahead for the home cinema user. i just hope im around to see it all.

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 15, 2014 12:09 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good for you that you don't see it. I've heard this before, they say it's perfect, yet I see it. But, again, we are entitled to our opinions and I stick with mine :-) I'll bet you stick with yours too

I can't show a video of it, as youtube and captured video is even worse. My brain picks up on the movement (stutter) which is also visible in for example GTA games, Need for Speed which are both games I can not play due to the stutter, but Burn Out is not suffering from it. DVD's and Blu-Rays, as well as cinema, all suffer from this (I can't help what my brain recognizes that yours don't)

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted July 15, 2014 02:11 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul

Its obvious what you have just said that your 35mm cinema experience was crap due to "many reasons" but its not because of the film format itself. Do you no the make of 35mm projector and equipment they were using? Digital projection is fine but its not without its problems as well.

About three years ago we ran a 35mm print on our large screen of the David Lean "Dr Zhivago" and the "look" of this film on the screen just looked great.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 15, 2014 02:52 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have many super 8 prints which IMO look far better than the digital equivalents. I also have a lot of DVD's and Blu rays which IMO are way better than anything achievable on super 8 and probably 16mm too.
There is no way I could now live without digital projection. It has enabled me to see just about any movie ever made, in stunning detail on my home screen, and has made home cinema better than the professional multiplex.
Both formats are great as far as I am concerned, but I can certainly believe that Snow White on super 8 is a much better viewing experience than the digital versions.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Paul Barker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 395
From: Lancashire, England
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted July 15, 2014 04:29 PM      Profile for Paul Barker   Email Paul Barker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
vidar. maybe like some people with DLP projection. they see the so called rainbow effect while others do not. i understand what you are saying. and it must be annoying to you. if you really get so much from real film then stick with it. the main thing is to enjoy. whatever format you use.

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 15, 2014 04:36 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is something I can agree on :-) Weirdly enough, I do not see the rainbow effect, but the motion problem only. I assume that is because I am losing my eyesight, so it doesn't pick up those things anymore. If you have films you want to get rid of, I can trade you for a Blu-Ray or DVD ;-)

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted July 22, 2014 03:40 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately I pick up both the stutter and the rainbow effetcs. Never seen them with a 4K projection though...

--------------------
Maurizio

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Pete Richards
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2010


 - posted July 25, 2014 05:45 AM      Profile for Pete Richards   Email Pete Richards   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The stutter is caused with projectors that do not have a true 23.976 or 24fps frame rate. It occurs on many projectors as they are locked at 60Hz, and 24 just doesn't go into 60 cleanly, resulting in what people refer to as 'stutter' or 'judder.
Also, PCs being used for playback often will not output the correct framerate, resuting in a similar problem.
There are some test files here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/FrameRateTestFiles.zip

With a true 24fps projector, and a good bluray player, you will not see any judder. With a 60Hz projector, the judder drives me crazy!

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 25, 2014 05:58 AM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree on that type of problem, but it's also in "perfect" 24 fps too. I can only say, if you don't see it when the camera is panning, you probably think it's great with digital, but my eyes pick up the movement problem. There's a little bit on film too, if the camera pans quickly, but it's just about ever present on digital. Watch for clean edges when the camera moves, totally awful. But apparantly not everyone see this.

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Pete Richards
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2010


 - posted July 25, 2014 06:54 AM      Profile for Pete Richards   Email Pete Richards   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Vidar, but unless the disc was encoded incorrectly, there is no difference between a film projector and a true 24fps digital projector as far as judder goes. I'd suggest that you have only experienced the (far more common) 60Hz projectors that do not have 24 panels.

Single chip DLP will give problems (due to the colour wheel causing temporal issues), but it just isn't possible on a proper digital projector with a panel that operates at an exact multiple of 24. There is nothing to see as you get exactly one frame per displayed image, the film and digital presentations are identical as far as movement goes, you get 24 separate images every second (usually doubled to 48 in both cases), there is no difference.

There are discs such as Casino Royal that have encoding errors that cause judder, but that is a mastering fault, nothing to do with the projector.

If you see it on film as well, all you are experiencing is pans that are too fast, 24fps doesn't allow for fast movement on either film or digital. We have come to like the limitations of 24fps (i.e. lots of motion blur) but it does mean that as a cinematographer, you are really limited to slow speeds when moving the camera. Break the rule, and you break the image.

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 25, 2014 08:12 AM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You give the chips too much credit. These are computers and CPU speed is a big factor. They're not showing it properly on my Sony, BenQ, The Odeon 4K in London or anywhere I've been. I can only go from what my eyes pick up, good for you it yours don't

When I saw Ender's Game in The Odeon, it was just awful, my friend didn't pick up on it, but I clearly saw frames missing in big close ups of faces turning.

I'll leave it at that, I will never get the feel of digital and will be watching reels instead

Each to his own

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 25, 2014 12:51 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are sensitive to 'rainbows' then you need to stay well away from single chip DLP projectors which are notorious for generating rainbows that can be detected by a sizeable percentage of the population.. LCD projectors, and 3-chip DLP projectors, never ever generate rainbows.
Many projectors now include advanced features such as frame creation, that can eliminate frame judder in fast motion scenes, but I have never found it necessary to activate any of them on my Panasonic AE4000U, which produces a gorgeous image, about as film-like that digital is capable of.
And lets be totally honest here. This week I went to see a 35mm showing of the Clint Eastwood film Play Misty For Me. I enjoyed the show, and the fact that it was a 35mm presentation made it extra special. But I have to be brutally honest and say IMO my home digital projection of the DVD is far better quality in both picture and sound for this particular film print. And I love film.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted July 25, 2014 02:07 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again, each to his own. I love film, tolerate video.

Of course, my digital projector didn't cost 10000 GBP+, so maybe my BenQ W1300 is crap, but then the projectors in the cinemas are the same. I tolerate (barely) the digital videos lifeless picture, but love film

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted July 25, 2014 03:02 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed, each persone may react differently. Some people (about a third of the audience) were not able to see 3D effects with the red and blue galsses. Some people report they have a headache with the new 3D system. Some people are very sensitive to cell phones waves, and so on. I can feel the waves of a micro-waves, I think this must be rare.

--------------------
Dominique

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 25, 2014 07:29 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Never heard of that one Dominique!

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Pete Richards
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2010


 - posted July 25, 2014 08:53 PM      Profile for Pete Richards   Email Pete Richards   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your Benq doesn't have a 24Hz panel, so you will see awful judder on it.

A well setup projector and delivery mechanism will *not* have any more judder than film does, it is easy to test for, and the installations I look after simply do not have it. We monitor for dropouts and they don't occur in well maintained systems. It is pretty easy for current equipment to lock in at 24fps, but some systems are not setup correctly, or do not actually run at a multiple of 24fps and you will see judder.
I can detect a missing frame by eye at up to around 55fps, after that I have to use the sensing equipment that works up to 300fps, I'm pretty sure no-one here has eye circuitry that is more accurate [Smile]

We handle acquisition systems that run at thousands of frames per second and display systems that run at 144fps without any issues, so 24fps isn't difficult, just some people don't do their homework, and you get poor output [Smile]

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted August 04, 2014 06:29 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that screen brightness may also affect the visibility of stutter. If low the eye holds the last image longer at a similar brightness and smooths out the effect as with flicker. Also used for some 3D systems, constant camera movement and a dark filter over one eye.

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted August 04, 2014 02:02 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I sometimes also see judder. Also though youtube is not blu-ray I notice some weird effects.

One peculiar effect I have seen on Kelly's Heroes is in the scene where they are on the banking and Kelly is in his jeep watch the the background. It has a stroboscopic effect on the action in the background.

This is on all my versions including my 16mm scope.

At least you can use dvd/blu-ray to get the titles that were never on 8mm, or even 16mm.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted August 04, 2014 02:16 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr. Richards, my BenQ does have 24fps ... 3D projector and model that came out this spring

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted August 05, 2014 02:37 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am with Graham, Vidal and Dom on this subject. Digital just doesn't have the magic of film. Even if the film suffers lines, splices etc it still gets my vote. Digital doesn't cut it for me.

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