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» 8mm Forum   » General Yak   » Will Hd Eclipse Film? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Will Hd Eclipse Film?
John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 30, 2009 02:59 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Film as a distribution medium is facing the end of it's run. Look at the Kodak professional website and go into the digital theatre management program. The goal is to remove film and distribute electronically. It has nothing to do with quality, but with cost and a "green planet" without the by-products of making and developing film and then destruction of the prints. (The market for guitar picks has greatly diminished in the digital age.)

As for image capture: Film right now is the best and safest method. We can still get images off negatives made 100 years ago. There are problems with fading and support degrading, but in all a lot of material still exists from long ago. No so with a lot of digital media and electronic analog recordings. In fact magnetic recordings form the 60s are often unplayable in the state they were stored in an have to be "baked" before being played and transfered.

So there is still a lot to learn about storage and care, but I think we'll see film as a distribution medium phased out in the next 10 years or so.

John

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3083
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted November 30, 2009 03:01 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Do you have a link to that Kodak website you mention?

-Mike

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5436
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 30, 2009 08:39 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I have a same feeling with you and had expressed earlier that it is the best to see what Kodak will do in the next 5 years on digital image vs analog image.

quote:
Do you have a link to that Kodak website you mention?
Michael, it is easy to see when you click on www.kodak.com, the first title you will see on the top of yur browser is Kodak-Digital Cameras, Camera Accessories.... etc.

Also when you click on their store:

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/home

Everything is about digital gears.

Celluloid will go eventually, and we have to accept that.

--------------------
Winbert

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 01, 2009 03:23 AM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks everyone for all your comments,
I also agree that the General public dont really seem to care what media the latest movies are delivered,this is evident in people wathching films on a 5 inch phone screen.
The studios will go with whatever the buying public want,but cost will also be a determening factor.Quality always takes a back seat when technology moves forward,we all remeber the Betamax-Vhs format war..the Laserdisc-DVD battle..The Vinyl album-Compact Disc conflict..even now compact disc is being usurped by inferior MP3.
Once the studios decide the next way forward we can then have a good moan about the content of most of the movies being released [Smile]
Stewart

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3083
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 01, 2009 03:50 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

Thanks for that link but I'm not looking for consumer "digital gear". I'm interested in the Digital Theatre Management Systems that John wrote about. I can't seem to find this section on the site you linked.

-Mike

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 01, 2009 04:08 AM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael,i tried to find out about Kodak TMS on its website but all the pages are `not found`.
If you do a google for Kodak TMS there are plenty of second hand references to it.
Regards
Stewart

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3083
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 01, 2009 04:50 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, Stewart. Thanks. [Smile]

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted December 01, 2009 06:45 AM      Profile for Barry Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I will endorse that by repeating what a previous post said: ".....all they want want these days is a 100 minute thrill ride" It could be released on sellotape and wouldnt be noticed-especially with nongs watching movies on their precious mobile gizmos.
Nuff said. [Eek!]

--------------------
Standard8 rules!!

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 01, 2009 08:58 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
I can't find the page on Kodak US Cinematography about the transition to digital projection. There is a news release from October about a five screen installation. But the website had two full color pamphletes for exhibitors in making the transition to digital from film.

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/news/2009/Oct26_1.htm

Perhaps it'll come back, perhaps they weren't ready for the onslot of questions.

But they are planning for a future without release prints.

John

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 01, 2009 09:11 AM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
I think this Kodak TMS system may need its own Forum topic,to me most Cinema chains will use this to get rid of alot of projectionists. Single manning your local 25 screen gigaplex probably gets a lot of Cinema Managers excited to say the least. [Smile]

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 01, 2009 09:32 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like it was too little too late for Kodak. They shut down the TMS Digital Cinema System on Friday, November 20, 2009.

http://blog.xcski.com/2009/11/20/so-long-kodak

John

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 01, 2009 09:46 AM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I feel sorry for all the employees laid off..but also a woohoo might be in order. [Wink]

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 01, 2009 12:27 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Stewart,

I don't think you can read into that move that Kodak thinks that there is a future in motion picture release print rawstock manufacture. Over the years the regulations and requirements have become burdensome on Kodak and motion picture labs. In the last 10 years we've seen more and more labs fold and go out of business just as we saw sound stripers disappear. Now there is less need for 35mm full coat and 35mm 3-stripe for production work and thus one of the major uses for used prints has disappeared (of course estar base wasn't usable for sound editing, anyway).

We really are at the mercy of very few companies to make the film and chemistry to keep release prints alive and as cheaper methods of distribution emerge, whether with Kodak or other companies, the demand will drop to the point where it's no longer economically feasible to make the film or the exotic organic chemicals to develop it. (Color developing agents and couplers are very complicated molecules.)

Kodak was marketing a full theatre program (pre-show slides, previews, main program, shorts) that would provide computer show make-up as well as service to maintain the projectors and manage admission, etc. A total turn-key system. The 2100 installations will probably be sold to other service providers. Kodak did not build the projectors themselves but sourced them from Barco and JVC/Hughes.

John

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1630
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted December 01, 2009 12:29 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any part of Kodak shutting down is a sad thing. Even if it helps propel the world away from film.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10127
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 01, 2009 01:31 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I loved that first post of yours Winbert. Well said.

Even when actual production ceases, I believe that the facilities will still exist, even if for art houses and such and revivals. Look at what happened with Technicolor, being finished, (with "The Godfather" being the last official technicolor release) and in the last ten years or so, we have seen new technicolor re-releases coming forth, (Gone With The Wind, Wizard of Oz, ect.)

I think that there will always be an appreciation for film. I don't think it will completely go away.

By the way, there were some really good points made about the lack of reliability to video or digital sources. It seems to me that to rely on digital when it has a much quicker degrading property is a big problem. It is the same probelm that Hollywood has now when it switched, in large part, to Eastman film stock in the 1950's. Yes, less cumbersome and cheaper, but there are many Etasman negatives from back in the 50's that are incredibly hard to restore, as the elements are in terrible shape.

The CD's that we burn, for instance, are so unstable that they can already be beyond repair in just a few years. Get a magnet too near to your computer files and you can end up losing your computer files ...

... aqnd lets not forget the polar shift to happen in just three years, which is going to really cause worldwide havoc, which will also affect electrical sources and, in the end, digital sources. (for those that do not know about this, this is in combination with solar activity. Please look it up on the internet, its a fascinating read. Low tech, and I mean, REAL low tech, will become the norm again!)

No, Osi has not went off his nut, this is a documented fact and is already starting to affect things. Migrations of species, the now reversed global warming, (the temperature is now very slowly returning to normal, why do you think the powers that be have selectively switched the name to "climate change" instead og Global Warming? That term, has lived its days).

Gee, It may seem that I slipped off the subject. What I'm meaning to say is that digital and digital storage can be affected and destroyed far easily than film sources. As others have mentioned, look at how we still have film sources that are amazingly near a hundred years old!

It seems a foolhardy thing to switch from a time tested source in favor of something, (and, in fact, putting our faith in), that we don't really know the preservational potential. I find it interesting that even with restoring prints in digital, film archive houses will then make a brand new print on low fade film stock for final preservation.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 01, 2009 03:24 PM      Profile for Jose Artiles   Email Jose Artiles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Everybody here knows my posture about digital....simply sucks and im very sure that once definitely cinema be digital at all people will lost the interest to see movies on cinema no mater how big the screen or 3d sensation,alot of people here in my country left the cinemas when they know what they see is video sayinh" to see video projected i prefer to see it at home with my wife at my side". im sure digital will be the end of cinema as a business because the next generations dont have interest in nothing,just the quick of the moment...for that reason we can see young people seing movies at their phones(horrible!) and a last thing once digital entry on cinemas..the magic of see a film will be gone forever because as i always say ..the matter is more than the quality of film ..is the texture what digital never will capture and that texture of film is what make cinema a magic experience,blue ray..hd dvd...never will macht the magic of film because how more definition digital has more freezy and cold is to our eyes and that is a fact,nothing,nothing will beat the old school projection no matter what the industry say,everytiem i have to project digital on my cinema makes me sick.long life film FOREVER

--------------------
As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10127
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 01, 2009 04:32 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Jose.

The thing I've never been able to understand is these young people who are content to watch a film on they're PSP game system.

Yep, its widescreen, buts a 4 inch wide widescreen! You cant possibly enjoy every detail at that size! There's just too much going on in the frame!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5436
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 01, 2009 08:11 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
im very sure that once definitely cinema be digital at all people will lost the interest to see movies on cinema
I see what you are saying Jose. But those businessmen in that film industry also may have seen this trend. And as good businessman, they have to deal with this situation and find a strategy to keep money coming to their company.

And this is why we have now "paid channel", "paid streaming" etc..etc...

I can see in the future people can watch at home at the same time movie is released on Theater. and for those businessmen it does not matter at all, as long as people are paying to watch the movie (no matter where it is).

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 01, 2009 11:32 PM      Profile for Jose Artiles   Email Jose Artiles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Exactly dear gentlemen,is for that reason that i made such statement,maybe will be streaming video in our houses but..again...its not real cinema is...what i always say JUST TV EMISSION or.... worse!! TV/dvd PROJECTION!!.Believe me i considered myself a true film collector and i have business in the industry too but one thing i´ll never do will be to buy a video projector,in my opinion or you are a true collector and use film loving it or..leave the hobby take the digital and quit your nick of "film collector",now maybe some people attacks me..ok but it never quit me the rigth to say the real true,we must stop to make up the things..its terrible hear a long time collector with cane hair saying that digital is "another way" come on boys you know that is not true if someone prefer see tv in a giant size then,please,dont say "im a film collector" i know a lot of people here maybe hate me for the words im saying but all of you know in your hearts that is true all what i say,i dont want to hurt others collector here i just try to explain the things clears because im tired of so much make up words referring film and digital.We are the future of this hobby so please Dont support digital and use more and more our film cameras as i do on and keep in our hearts a LIVING FLAG saying "i love film and im proud of that".
all the best for all.
Jose

--------------------
As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted December 02, 2009 07:11 AM      Profile for Barry Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jose,Fine words indeed and I wholly support you.
Yes,I do have a video projector and its very useful for watching past films not genarally available-even though they are reproduced clinically and have no presence!
Standing alongside that VP though in my film room is 16mm sound,Standard8 sound and throw-away Super8.Its a crying shame that all the technology in S8 is wasted as I beleived it had a solid future.
So its left to the likes of us all on this forum to make sure it all continues,evn if it is in the hands of collectors.Long may it reign.

--------------------
Standard8 rules!!

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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 02, 2009 09:50 AM      Profile for Jose Artiles   Email Jose Artiles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your kind words Barry,i don want to hurt or offend anybody here with what i say but,yes,is a cryng shame that technology try to kill the emotion of running a film.
All the best for all here.

Jose.

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As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4922
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 02, 2009 09:56 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think DVD and BD film distribution will not be around 15 years from now. By then, it will only be available by downloading in a highly compressed form. Right now is the golden age for DVD and BD collecting, just as it was for super 8mm 30 years ago. So buy those discs now, while you can. The beautiful collectors edition DVD and BD sets with all the extras and extra features will probably be a thing of the past in a few years. Film, as we know it, will soon only exist in cyberspace. And will dvd's and BD's even be playable 20 years from now, even assuming you can still buy the players?
No such worries with film and film equipment, which as we know, will last a lifetime and beyond.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 942
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted December 02, 2009 10:43 AM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was curious to see how Julie and Julia was shot and found this:
http://www.theasc.com/magazine_dynamic/August2009/JulieJulia/page1.php
It was shot on film and went to Efilm for the DI and was even shot super 1:85, which means it would be sharper than normal since the image is slightly reduced. However, although I didn't read the whole article, on the DI page it mentions why use Premier print stock when they want the leading ladies to look soft and beautiful. So I suspect they used a lot of diffusion and soft light to cut down on wrinkles on Meryl Streep and other women. So that might be the reason for the softness of the image. Doug might be able to tell us better since he is a cameraman.

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Damien Taylor
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted December 02, 2009 01:44 PM      Profile for Damien Taylor   Email Damien Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Julie and Julia could have been shot on 65mm the source isn't the problem, the problem lies with the crew down at deluxe, technicolour or <insert lab> where they have to churn these things out en masse, the QC is obviously suffering.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 02, 2009 03:54 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A 'Proper' Camera

 -

'HD' Digital Camera:

 -

Both New cameras by Arri.

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