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Author Topic: All Four Engines Have Failed
Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3935
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 02, 2013 05:09 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My granddaughter 7 years old and myself were watching "Air Accident Investigation" on TV the other night "good series" this one was about BA009 and that reminded me of the book I read years ago "still got it" about this incident.

It happened on a British Airways flight from London to Auckland NZ back in 1982. Its a remarkable story and well worth the read....might be just the thing to pass the time on the long flight across the Atlantic to the next "BFCC" [Big Grin]
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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6794
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 02, 2013 06:24 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yikes!

We had a twin engine jet suck a flock of geese into the engines just after takeoff from Laguardia about four years ago. The pilot found himself engineless at low altitude over New York City.

He managed to turn south and ditch in the Hudson River with the plane intact and the passengers and crew safe.

You have to admire a guy that can find himself in a moment like that and still keep his cool.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4815
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 02, 2013 07:27 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes the pilot "Sully"" was the right guy at the right place at the right time. With only seconds to make a non-reversible once in a life decision, he cooly turned the plane around and ditched the USAIR flight in the Hudson with no loss of life. He was given the keys to the city of New York for his heroism and has since become an ambassador for USAirways and international celebrity- deservedly so.There is not one person on that plane who does not owe their life to Sully. People like Sully are the ones that renew your faith in the human race.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6794
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 02, 2013 08:37 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
-and can you imagine yourself there?

The lives of thousands of people will be saved or lost based on what you do or do not do over the next 5 minutes and it's no second chances either.

Most everything I do at work gets a trial run and can be corrected later on: sometimes I take that for granted!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted September 03, 2013 08:46 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Among the last DVDs I bought was Freefall 174, a true story about a flight from Canada, I don't remember where it was going. It was a time when measurements were changing from Imperial to Metric, and someone made a blunder in the conversion and only half filled the fuel tank. A great film, at the end it told you where the real participants are today.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3935
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 03, 2013 06:32 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am reading a book at the moment, found lately in an old book store called "Verdict on Erebus" written by Peter Mahon.

He was known then as Mr Justice Mahon, a judge of the high Court of New Zealand and was the Royal Commissioner appointed to report on the cause of the tragedy on Mt Erebus, when a Air New Zealand DC10 crashed on the slopes killing all 257 on board back in 1979.

It makes chilling reading...especially during his summing up, when he stated that he had heard a "Orchestrated Litany of Lies" from the company...that really stirred things up.

The company was quick to blame the pilots, however it was the judge that discovered that a serious mistake had been made on the nav computor track, which had been changed the night before the flight, that was to place the aircraft 30 miles of course and in direct line with the mountain instead of McMurdo Sound. This was never passed on to the pilots.

So many other factors came into play as well, including "whiteout conditions" the crew were not familiar with.

I was working at the airport that day when the news spread, that the the DC10 was overdue on its return scenic flight from over Antarctic to Christchurch. It wasn't till late in the afternoon that it was stated, that the aircraft by this stage would have run out of fuel.

Soon after an american helicopter pilot discovered wreckage on the slopes of Mt Erebus.

Air New Zealand stopped all scenic flights to Antarctic and soon the DC10 was replaced with the 747.

Although many years have passed, Peter Mahan book "Verdict On Erebus"..makes very interesting reading by a judge determined to get to the truth.

Graham.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4815
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 03, 2013 06:58 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham,
many years ago I read a book about air disasters, and the author compared the designs of the three major jumbo jets, the Boeing 747, the Lockheed Tristar, and the Douglas DC10. He concluded that the Lockheed Tristar was number one, closely followed by the 747. He though both were superbly designed aircraft. But he really went to town on the DC10, making it perfectly clear that, in his opinion, the DC10 was an inferior design aircraft with a host of design issues and major safety issues. Cargo doors falling off in midflight, causing depressurization of the cargo hold and collapse of the cabin floor and crushing of the hydraulic lines being just one of them. You may also recall that catastrophic DC10 crash at Chicago O'Hare airport when the engine literally fell off the plane right at the point of take off. They were all grounded for a while as the company made a design change to the single bolt that held the engine up against the fuselage [Eek!] . I have never trusted the plane, or its successor the MD11 ever since. Once, flying back from the UK a few years ago, I forgot to check the aircraft for my flight and was horrified when I took my seat to find I was on a DC10! [Eek!] It was a nail biting 9 hour flight for me, to say the least!

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted September 04, 2013 03:59 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, are these people trying to save money? The number of years that people have been building aircraft, you wouldn't think there would be these problems.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4815
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 04, 2013 10:35 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Robert, I am sure that all of the early safety issues on the DC10 have now been put to bed. I still see them flying out from Orlando International on a daily basis so I dont think that any of the airlines would be flying unsafe planes. Its just that, for me personally, based on its early history, it is not a plane I choose to fly on, in fact I will go out of my way to avoid it. Everytime I look at one, the horror of that Chicago crash comes back.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3935
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 05, 2013 12:49 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Years ago I spent almost four weeks working on a aircraft flight deck. During the strip down and inspection I came across some wiring I had not seen before that had suffered a bit of chaffing. I asked the avionics to have a look at it. They told me it was "Kapton Wiring" and what I was seeing was a outer copper sleeve...not the conductor itself and told it was OK.

The thing was with this type of wiring, is that you had to be real careful working round it. Before dropping all the roof panels on the flight deck I spent a lot of time torch/flashlight and mirror being "super duper" careful not to snag any of it.

Over those years I always felt uneasy with "Kapton wiring"...and the pilots were instructed at that time, that if a CB trips, they were only allowed to reset it "once only". If the CB continued to trip then leave it, don't try to reset it.

Well this stuff "Kapton Wiring" is and still being used in aircraft. The older 747s have it and its lethal. If it shorts out it can bring an aircraft down, a Swiss Air MD-11 was one.

What this wiring does once if it shorts out for whatever reason,is that it can generate heat up to 2000 degrees real quick. The result in a wiring loom will be "arc tracking" and before you know it, all your wiring in that area will be on fire.... "big time"

Old aircraft means old wiring [Eek!] ..so if you are flying somewhere make sure the airline has a fleet of more modern aircraft.

There is a video on the internet of a test carried out on Kapton Wiring...the results are downright scary to watch. I cant link that video to this forum, but if you Google "Kapton Wiring arc tracking" you will find it.

Graham.

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted September 05, 2013 04:55 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham; after reading your post, some overseas members may have 2nd thoughts about attending the BFCC.

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Mark L Barton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 614
From: Bristol, South Glos, England
Registered: Mar 2009


 - posted September 05, 2013 05:46 AM      Profile for Mark L Barton   Email Mark L Barton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most civil aviation aircraft fly under the term of MEL, which means Minimum Equipment List. Basically its the point at which an aircraft can still fly legally with some elements of its equipment not working. Say from the coffee maker to several items of kit not working. Slightly worrying but then remember the Apollo space programme and the mighty Saturn 5 moon rocket, it was built by the lowest bidding contractors and contained some 6 million parts with an estimate that at least 1% of those parts would not be working , thats 6000 items on the blink, and they still got to the Moon and back, makes you think.
Loving how this forum moves between subjects with film as the catalyst.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6794
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 05, 2013 05:57 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I flew all the way across Siberia 4 times in an Ilyushin Il-62.

This wasn't my choice, so I had so bite my lip, look out the window and be amazed how much snow could exist in one place!

Then again, if the Il-62 was good enough for Leonid Brezhnev it was good enough for me!

On the third trip we were approaching Sakhalin Island and slowly coming down through the clouds. All of a sudden we broke into clear air and the pilot must have discovered he was too close to the airport and too high. He went into this steep dive to attempt some sort of carrier landing. Now he discovered he was too fast and too steep and he pulled up and the earth below blurred past the window. Then we climbed back up and took a lazy turn around the city for a gentle second try.

The whole cabin was kind of quiet after that.

[ September 05, 2013, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1366
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted September 05, 2013 01:53 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brings back memory of my trip to Toronto on Canada 3000, as we were approaching the airport the pilot announced that we would be making a fly by over the control tower with the gear down. This was due to the ground staff at Manchester had found some bits off a plane. You could have heard a pin drop.

On the return flight final approach to Manchester, suddenly full power right turn. Again pilot comes on "Sorry about that we were a bit close to the plane in front"

Could still be film related though in-flight movie!

Just returned from Thailand on Emirates A380 its like 14 hours total each way, I struggle to sleep on planes, so with the entertainment on modern planes I watched quite a few films and they have old ones too. Time just flew by. Sorry.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3935
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 05, 2013 08:37 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember a documentary on TV "a while ago" regarding "United Airlines Flight 811". What stood out, was the Auckland family who had lost there son on this flight, flew to the states and did there own investigation.

In the end the conclusion was faulty wiring had caused a short circuit, this in turn was to activate the motor and door opening mechanism against a flawed locking system.

The result was the door started to open at 23000ft, this caused a explosive decompression tearing the door off. Tragically 9 people that were seated above the door area lost there lives.

The pilot did an amazing job bringing this aircraft in, that had sustained such damage to the airframe and engines.
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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4815
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 05, 2013 10:24 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeepers Graham, I never thought I'd see a 747 looking like that! [Eek!] I have not heard of that event at all, when did it happen and was it in the USA or NZ?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3935
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 06, 2013 01:34 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul

Check out You-tube "Air Crash Investigation-S1E2-Unlocking Disaster {United Airlines Flight 811}" its very good with interviews with the pilots, cabin crew and passengers. running time is about 50 minutes.

Paul let me know how you get on?

PS. Sent you a e-mail with you-tube link

Graham.

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