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Author Topic: Time warp - digital didn't happen?
Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 03, 2014 11:21 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Recently I was reminiscing with a like minded pal (film mad), about what would the consequences have been if digital, or indeed video of any sort, hadn't happened?
Film presumably would have continued it's development (yes I saw the pun there), resulting in even more improvements in grain structure, super 8 optical sound prints would have possibly become more common, and cheaper, as these could be printed in one pass, and features would perhaps be manufactured in cassettes of some type, like the airplane prints.
As regards film grain, this has already improved, with 16mm giving 35mm quality when blown up digitally, but it's fascinating to think what could have been.
Maybe it would have outpriced itself without the incredibly cheap DVD's becoming available?

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted May 03, 2014 11:32 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There would at least be magnetic pre-striped film from Kodak and Agfa. Since film is silver based price of film would vary depending on the price of silver. And I hate, with a passion, the look of the digital motion picture cameras.

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Jason Gronn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 237
From: Boyne Island, Queensland, Australia
Registered: Sep 2013


 - posted May 04, 2014 12:15 AM      Profile for Jason Gronn   Email Jason Gronn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry, I would have to agree with you on the digital cameras infact l havnt been to my local cinemas in two years since they went digital, l hate the look of it and going to the cinema has just lost it's atmosphere in my opinion

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted May 04, 2014 04:34 AM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can be sure that one of the Japanese companies, such as Sony or Samsung, would be pioneering new ventures into film. Self-developing film, new one-pass-processing to do at home and such. I reckon we would have much cheaper, and better, cameras and film, and projectors would also be cheaper and better.

Imagine an Elmo GS1200 with todays technology and know-how.

But sooner or later we would get iFilm, and then everyone would drop everything and run at it!

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 04, 2014 05:37 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 04, 2014 05:41 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think pre-striped camera film could have become more common, though it's not beyond the realms of possibility that an optical sound exposure could be built into some cameras if on the spot recordings were required. This I think would be quite likely due to extra costs of striping. As far as editing is concerned mag would be essential for dubbing purposes.
It's swings and roundabouts.
Four track mag was abandoned professionally years ago due to expense and when the digital revolution happened was replaced by several types of digital stereo tracks printed with the picture.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 04, 2014 09:06 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps by now the soundtrack would have been digitally encrypted on the mag stripe or perhaps even some other method of producing digital sound alongside the synchronized frames of film if Super 8 had remained popular among the masses.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted May 04, 2014 12:55 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The quality reached by Derann 10 years ago give us an idea of what film could have been if investement had been made by companies. Obviousely the filmstock would have been improved. Miniaturisation would have led to smaller and lighter cameras (with silent mechanism like the Braun Nizo). Projectors would have benefited also from miniaturisation and the new bulbs would have made the projectors more silent as ventilation makes a noise. All this with sound improvment. But sadly, in this case, you cannot change history.

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Dominique

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted May 04, 2014 06:15 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dolby Digital sound mix synchronize to film on a "mini-disc" not on stripe would have been the way to go [Smile]

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

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From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 05, 2014 03:42 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Grahame, this is the DTS system now often used with 35mm, but would this have worked in our non-digital time warp?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 05, 2014 04:10 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
For technology to have satisfied all of our needs, we really just needed more of the population to appreciate the beauty of REAL film.I think the way projectors were advancing in the early 80's, had they only been purchased for a few years longer by the masses, then things may have been slightly different. Many of the later models were definitely becoming more sophisticated, quieter, brighter and with relatively sophisticated recording and mixing facilities in stereo.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 05, 2014 04:23 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regarding quieter projectors, could the intermittent mechinism have been gradually replaced by a smooth running method perhaps involving revolving prisms,as already used in some viewing machines?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 05, 2014 07:26 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
or even microprocessor controlled direct drive using stepper or servo motors! No cam or claw needed, just another sprocket at the side of the gate, therefore the only noise audible would have been that of the cooling fan for the lamp!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 06, 2014 09:07 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
These innovations would have definitely been the way to go.

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Paul Mason
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
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 - posted May 06, 2014 09:42 AM      Profile for Paul Mason     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally I would miss the loss of the claw intermittent noise from a smooth motion projector. Incidentally projectors using a flashing light source were tried to eliminate the need for the shutter.

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Paul.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted May 07, 2014 02:40 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Count your blessings!

-if "digital" really never happened the internet wouldn't have happened either, and we wouldn't be here talking about what would have happened if digital never happened.

There are a lot of modem technologies that would have been nice to use in super 8 projection.

What if for example a print just had time code instead of a magnetic or optical sound track, and the projector had slot for a audio CDs with booming, hiss free, hum free stereo soundtracks?

-you put in the disk, you run the film and the machine does the rest.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 07, 2014 04:07 PM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The situation you're illustrating is the very situation that exists now, which has resulted in the decline of film. The different technologies have worked alongside each other for a while, but the most economical one has taken over.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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 - posted May 07, 2014 08:13 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a hobby medium, small gauge film is great: the machines require skill to operate and maintain (maybe even fix here and there...) and the films themselves are collectible.

This doesn't make it a great consumer medium, though. With the silver disk you slide it in the little drawer, you push a couple of buttoms on the remote and it's showtime.

-my son has been playing DVDs since before Kindergarten!

I think this is as big a factor as the low media cost in people turning away from projecting film. Projecting film requires effort most people just aren't interested in making.

Some people go fishing, others buy frozen fish at the supermarket. (Pretty much the same thing.)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 08, 2014 06:49 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DVD's are wonderfull, no mistake about that. We can own any film we want in excellent quality, with a bit of luck.
While I was running some 16mm films at a nursing home some time ago, a carer wondered why I was bothering with all the film paraphernalia, wouldn't a DVD have done the job easier, she thought? "Not so much fun" was my response. I'm sure she thought I was nuts. But that's why, with what youngsters may call it's disadvantages, I still have a yen for the pre digital days. It's my age perhaps.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted May 08, 2014 08:03 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film is impractical (there! I said it!)

-but who wants a completely practical hobby? (Wouldn't that be called "work"?)

My brother-in-law spent a week learning how to build a rocking chair in his wood shop. If you miss the whole idea of getting satisfaction from accomplishing something this seems like a waste of time.

-perfectly good rocking chairs are pouring out of factories into furniture stores every day for less money than the course he took. Why be bothered?

Simple: for the joy of it.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted May 08, 2014 02:14 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nothing wrong with frozen fish. I always ask the assistant to throw it a me so I can say I caught it.

IF we could get film with 5.1 sound encoded on it would THAT be utopia for me

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
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 - posted May 08, 2014 06:25 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Conversely if you popped in to your time machine and got out in 1895 with decent generators and lots of digital equipment and the associated tech etc would film have got going at all. Probably not.

Film development was governed by what they could do at the time with what they had if you will. If electronic development and components etc were more advanced who can say etc.

There are huge environmental benefits of the digital surge not just in film etc as well.

I love film and always will but a 2nd hand Video projector for only a £100 or so and a blu Ray player blows all but the very best 16mm clean out of the water and can also look very nice and filmic even if you like.

If S8 projector and film development had continued longer it would have been great.

What it comes down to now really is the fiddly fun that mainly appeals to men, and its very enjoyable.

Vinyl is coming back in a huge rush, but was always to begin with a massive market by comparrison. But you can buy a really great quality Chinese made record deck from around £100 + new with a guarantee in 2014 and away you go.

I don`t think the long term future of super 8 is commercial in a sense. The costs are crackers. The way to go would be for a group of collectors from all over the world to join via the net and put some money in.

To set up a digital to film set up somewhere with a super 8 camera which can do sound either to optical or mag sound direct as you film from HD, and associated equipment to slit and process etc all in house and source stock from China, India etc.

Also its a shame CHC`s efforts regarding a new machine failed but what was really needed was a buy up of old Elmo little used ST600`s etc, having upgraded sound and light and stereo connectors and guides fitted, then fully serviced and guaranteed for say £450-£500.

Its a shame but I don`t think the hobby can really get any long term ( younger ) people in any significant way. Not least as they will initially be sniffed out and sold red, scratched and crappy films and duff machines etc to begin with !!! unless very very lucky.

Films day is done really, but it would have been nice and very interesting if super 8 particularly had been longer in development.

Best Mark.

[ May 09, 2014, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Mark Todd ]

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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 - posted May 08, 2014 07:18 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Allan
Don't forget that long before the DTS disc, sound used to be in sync to 35mm film using a record. DTS is just an advancement of something that had been around a long time.

If the digital age didn't happen, film would still be around, however the digital age has done much to improve things, like health care, communication, the internet, Facebook [Big Grin] etc.

The thing with all film, be it slides or Super8 etc, is the look of it when projected onto a screen. To a certain extent I still miss projecting the stuff for a living, and sometimes cringe when I go to the cinema and watch, not film but digital...it just ain't the same [Frown]

Anyway my next project is to make our small projection box slightly bigger, to include the 5 deck platter that is already running from the garage and place it in a more dust free environment. [Cool] ..in time will be the only place in town still running a wee bit of film using a platter [Smile]

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted May 09, 2014 01:11 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, you're right to point out that the cost of the film is a problem. However, you never know how things can change. I remember an intersting interview (I cannot find back)about the possibilities of 3d printers regarding the film. The person who was interviewed said that it should already be possible for a small lab to manufacture filmstock through this at reasonnable cost. Who knows if the 3d printers will not be one day capable of manufacturing new projectors and cameras for a fraction of the price than it would cost with the traditional way ?

--------------------
Dominique

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted May 09, 2014 05:17 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Dominique, that is a really interesting thought, it is amazing how things are progressing with those. I think CHC has one actually unless I`ve had a memory flip.

The whole concept seems a bit nuts really but it works !!! For me it just seems to have a Sci Fi twang to it.

I have to say having seen very good HD to film, to me it had the quality of film and a filmie look. I wonder if there is a camera on super 8 with a 400 feet canister could do it with sound direct mag or optical.

I always thought it was a shame optical prints for the home market didn`t make more ground.

Best Mark.

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