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Topic: Good Investment?

Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 14, 2015 04:06 PM

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I was interested to hear recently that vintage/antique mechanical items such as cars, cameras, clocks, watches etc. do not qualify for capital gains tax. So it stands that our collections of movie projectors, cameras and associated equipment fall into this category. Probably most of the members of this forum don't have the need to worry about this tax incentive but what is interesting is that there are more and more wealthy people looking to 'park' their money in collectables like this. This could explain the recent rise in selling prices of our cherished items on the likes of eBay and other auctions. So don't despair by selling off your prized collections at rock bottom. As was mentioned on the TV auction program that I gleaned this information from - 'quality always sells'

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
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posted June 15, 2015 04:22 AM

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I haven't seen any evidence that projectors etc. are becoming collectors items. Perhaps they might in the future when they become a bit more scarce.

--------------------
Dave

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 15, 2015 07:06 AM

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Dave
You must have seen old projectors that have been converted to household lamps. This shows that there is an interest lately in old retro looking cine items. On top of that, old machines like Pathescope Gems,Sons and even Baby's (just to mention a few) are fetching high prices even though they are not particularly good projectors. It's just the retro look that attracts buyers. I believe that some are even purchased by 'high flyers' to display as an executive toy for their office desk. I've had one or two projectors repaired by electricians and they have all been fascinated by them and even asked if I had any objection to them taking photos of them. I recently acquired a Bolex 321and even though I have had many projectors of all gauges over the years, to me it is an absolute work of art cosmetically and so superbly engineered. As for scarcity, trying to find a projector in good cosmetic condition, and complete, is a challenge these days and that's what most people's priority is. Certainly mine. I'm not saying that our collections are going to be worth a fortune overnight, but I believe it's going in the right direction. Does no-one agree?

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Lee Mannering
Film God

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From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 15, 2015 07:21 AM

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Hi Terry. They had a musical instrument on the antiques programme a bit ago and the owner thought it worth a few thousand. It went to auction fetching just over £100.. Its very much a case of finding the right buyer in the end perhaps and sometimes speaking personally I feel happier seeing a movie go to someone who will appreciate it rather than any thought of cleaning up although I do like to break even. Its been rewarding over the years to give cine items to interested youngsters as we were once, in the hope they pick up on the hobby to preserve it.

Nice read you mentioning the good old GEM from Pathescope. Dad was a keen 9-5er spending much time at the sales counter in London so was inevitable I got the cine bug as a kid. My first Gem was very well used back then but over the years I soon amounted a collection, probably one for each room! [Eek!]

[Eek!]

Don't think I would make a table lamp out of one but I'm not alone in the fascination of the Gem as a guy I spoke to a bit ago had 10 of the things.
Sorry on a ramble..

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 15, 2015 09:49 AM

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Lee
I agree. Better to sell to newcomers at a reasonable price and encourage them into the hobby. What I am saying is that prices for good equipment WILL go up as items become scarce. No question about it. We are seeing it already. As for the Gem, I don't see why it is regarded any better than the Son, which has had terrible reviews re the damage to film issue. It is exactly the same. The only difference being that it is mounted on an amplifier. Having said that it is an iconic design and that simply reinforces what I am trying to get across. It is the retro look of some projectors, and cameras, that make them an attractive buy to some. Even though they have no interest or experience of cine. Let's face it, how many of us Forum members own equipment that we seldom or never use?

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Steve Carter
Master Film Handler

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From: Bristol, UK
Registered: Apr 2015

posted June 15, 2015 12:21 PM

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Something is only worth what some-one is willing to pay at that moment in time, you only have to watch programs like 'Pawn Stars', just because one person thinks it's rare or worth x amount doesn't mean that's what it will go for.
My Wife works in the theater so I have lots of signed albums, cd's, dvd's etc,they are all personal to me and I would never sell them...

[ June 16, 2015, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Steve Carter ]

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Osi Osgood
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posted June 15, 2015 12:43 PM

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It's the same rules for any kind of collecting/investing ...

What is the rarity of the item?
What is the condition of the item?
What is the market for the item?

That third one is crucial as, even if it's a rare item, if ...

1. Nobody wants it, even if rare ...
2. There are more of the rare item than the market will allow ..

it turns out to not be as good of an investment.

My safe best for this year of 2015? Anything old and STAR WARS, especially as we get closer to December, (release date of new film).

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted June 15, 2015 01:59 PM

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Wellll....

Something starts being a financial investment when the person that has it becomes willing to sell it.

I think my film stuff will be an excellent inheritance at best!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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posted June 15, 2015 06:01 PM

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Here Here Steve! [Smile]

[Smile]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
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posted June 16, 2015 02:40 AM

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Steve
I can understand your sentiment, but not your logic. When one buys it is an investment - when you sell you realise that asset. Personally I believe our investments in this hobby, will in time, pay dividends.

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Dave Groves
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From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
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posted June 16, 2015 03:13 AM

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I can see old projectors finding other uses (talking points-lampstands etc.) but they will probably only command any real price from other collectors. And once today's projectors lose their ability to project and become scarce what use will films be? Can't make lampstands out of them! Film needs projectors need film. Once one or the other fails they will indeed be antiques but whether they will ever become an investment remains to be seen. Personally, I have my doubts, but I must admit to liking the design of the 9.5 Son and could be persuaded to buy one just to sit on the shelf (if I had one!!) Some day, perhaps!

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Dave

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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posted June 16, 2015 03:46 AM

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I totally agree David and I feel the only high value items in a quarter of a century's time will be collections of both the best projectors and the best films when sold together.

As you say, otherwise one without the other would be useless.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted June 16, 2015 03:49 AM

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I totally agree David and I feel the only high value items in a quarter of a century's time will be collections of both the best projectors and the best films when sold together.

As you say, otherwise one without the other would be useless.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
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posted June 16, 2015 11:47 AM

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I am sure I am not alone in thinking that converting beautiful projectors into lampstands is sacrilege. The GEM and SON have always interested me as being exceptional examples of mechanical design art, even though they may not be very good projectors. I recently went to a phonograph convention where old acoustic cylinder phonographs were fetching as much as $5,000.00. I believe that years from now there will be a similar escalation in the value of vintage projectors,

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
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posted June 16, 2015 12:37 PM

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Paul
Thank you. At last a like minded member.
It is a sure fact that ,given time, our prized collections will become valuable assets, perpetuated by the likes of us who seek out and hoard the most rare and sought after pieces. Not a criticism - it's just what collectors do. Me included.
It's just a shame that the real rise in values may not be in our lifetime!

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Maurice Leakey
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posted June 17, 2015 04:37 AM

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quote:
As for the Gem, I don't see why it is regarded any better than the Son, which has had terrible reviews re the damage to film

The Gem was a silent projector, and as such, its films came off the feed spool in an anti-clockwise direction to meet the sprocket. The Son's films were sound and these came off the feed spools which rotated in a clockwise direction. The feed spool was often a 900ft and this meant that the film met the sprocket in a very tight manoeuvre which often exacerbated damage to a film.

Pathescope became aware of this problem with the Son and in later productions inserted a roller between the spool and the sprocket.

I have two Sons, one of which came with the mod, and the other did not. I was able to acquire a roller, so both are now the same.

I cannot see that any projector could be considered as an investment. It is true that eBay madness ensures that some items attract silly prices.

Perhaps the right film could be considered an investment. I have just bought a lovely pristine 16mm copy of "42nd Street". I can't date it as it's on Agfa-Geveart stock which does not carry a date code. But is it an investment? I just bought it to enjoy the fabulous musical items.

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Maurice

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Lee Mannering
Film God

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From: The Projection Box
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posted June 17, 2015 04:54 AM

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Art deco and lime green, much nicer than a crackle black Son. I also love the sound Son as well I should say, its all about Pathe/Pathescope history for keen 9-5ers.
Did a whole evening sound programme for our 9-5 regional meeting a few years back using a Son which I had somewhat souped up and the audience were pretty amazed at its performance. The real problem is that old projectors have changed hands so much and often into tinkerers hands who cause damage to the works then to the vintage films. You can see that very Son projector in my epic 'Cinema in Miniature' issued on Super 8 by the way.. Happy days!

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Paul Adsett
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posted June 17, 2015 09:16 AM

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I have been watching some of the YouTube's of 9,5mm optical sound films on Grahame Newnham's website, and I am really impressed with the sound quality of some of the films. So was the Son really that bad?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 18, 2015 06:50 AM

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Paul
Although the Son has had bad reviews, I had one a while ago which had upgraded motor, amplifier and lighting. It performed very well and as you say the sound quality for 9.5 was surprisingly good. I have always regretted selling it.
9.5 has always been a passion for me, ever since I found a 200b in the loft as a child, together with a clip of L&H in Our Relations and a reel of Wonders of the Amazon which depicted a Tarantula, Sloth and a Anaconda. Absolutely fascinating and I used to watch them over and over. That's what started my obsession with Cine. I know there are far better movie mediums these days but for me - just not the same.

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Osi Osgood
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posted June 18, 2015 02:10 PM

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I can only hope that I will instill a total LOVE for super 8, so that I can leave my collection to them, (or at least, one of them) and they'll actually keep them.

However, I'm only 50 in a few months, so there is every chance that I will be enjoying them for many a year to come, and these days, nearly all of my collection is on low fade except for a few of my super 8 optical films.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Robert Crewdson
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posted June 18, 2015 04:25 PM

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There was a guy on Preloved.co.uk who was turning 9.5mm projectors into table lamps. He wanted to buy a 16mm film from me, and when I asked him questions, he said he would bin the film and use the empty reel as a wall decoration. I didn't sell him the film.

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Graham Ritchie
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posted June 18, 2015 06:12 PM

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Cant see my GS1200 being turned into a lamp [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

more like a boat anchor [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

.....oh! I did ask my wife if she thought that all the films I have bought over the years were an investment?....the only reply I got was a definite ...."NO"..... [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

[Smile]

[ June 18, 2015, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Graham Ritchie ]

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Trevor Adams
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posted June 19, 2015 01:45 AM

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Graham is right-here in NZ,where home movies and projectors have always been the interest of the vast minority.It really is hard to give the stuff away!

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Trevor

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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posted June 19, 2015 04:23 AM

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I think in any country nowadays Trevor,it is the vast minority of people who are interested in film and film projectors.
It's certainly the case here although we do of course still have plenty of people who still want to own,preserve and continue to collect quality film.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Robert Crewdson
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posted June 19, 2015 08:31 AM

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I don't think they are an investment; I am sure that I would never get back what I laid out on certain films. I know this to be true of 16mm cameras I bought. The internet has made items much easier to find, and as a result, prices of certain collectors items have dropped (Vinyl records and rare books).

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