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Author Topic: Anyone projected 4K upscaled Blue Ray etc
Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted October 23, 2016 12:39 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi I just wondered if anyone had projected 4K or 4K upscaled Blu Ray.

Any thoughts etc.

Best Mark.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 23, 2016 01:52 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, personally I'm holding out on 4K for now; not because it isn't potentially much better in terms of definition and colour gamut, but because one of the major potential advantages of new 4K displays (be they panels or projectors) and mastering, is High Dynamic Range.

Now at the moment, most displays and mastering conform to HDR 10, which, quite frankly, I think is a mistake, or a missed opportunity at best.

Nit figures aside, both HDR 10 and Dolby Vision conform to SMPTE ST-2084, but HDR works in 10 bit, whereas Dolby Vison was designed to work in 12 bit.

HDR 10 produces artifacts and such puts a bit of a damper on the whole 4K or UHD launch.

One can only hope that 12 bit Dolby Vision quickly becomes the standard and then 4K becomes tempting.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted October 23, 2016 02:48 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You lost me on a technicality from paragraph 2 of your reply to Mark there Rob, but I am personally sticking with 1080p and Bluray as I have no wish to have to buy all those disks all over again no matter what the implied increase in quality is - for me it is one format change too many and my methods of watching digital HD at home (42" HDTV and 7 foot wide HD LCD projection) will do me fine.

Kevin

[ October 27, 2016, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Kevin Clark ]

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
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 - posted October 23, 2016 02:55 PM      Profile for Stuart Reid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to say, at the size and distance I'm able to view things 4K currently isn't for me. I don't think I'd see enough of a difference on a 40" screen which is what we have in the lounge, or a 8ft projected image. And HDR also fails to pique my interest unfortunately. God, i've finally reached the end of the upgrade road! If only my 30 year old self could hear me now!

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
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 - posted October 23, 2016 03:22 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I find \Blu Ray absolutely enough for myself. Still like good dvd too.

I do find some upscaled dvd can be really nice through a HD panel so was thinking what an upscaled BR through the same would be like.

I could do with a new blu ray player and I see you can get 4K Blu Ray upsclaling ones quite cheaply now.

Best Mark.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 23, 2016 11:44 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Unless you are buying a 4k dedicated H.C. projector on the same day Mark, I doubt you'd gain anything.

Ultimately of course, any upscaled media is to allow the user to take advantage of the newer higher resolution display equipment from older generation media, with some success.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Skillern
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: South Wales
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 - posted October 24, 2016 03:15 AM      Profile for David Skillern   Email David Skillern   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Every time I pop into curry's - i always wander up to the TV's and see whats on offer - i find the displays to be quite conflicting in what they screen - you have the usual designated 4k demonstration display and then you have stuff that is broadcast - and some of those images look rather articial - as i found myself looking at the images - the uneven make-up on the actors etc - which would make me think that i'd be concentrating on looking at these things than the actual programme. As it stands - my 50 inch full HD plasma is still going strong with excellent images and my 2 LCD projectors do the job i need .

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted October 24, 2016 05:11 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, as Andrew says, you need a 4K display before trying to upscale standard Blu-ray to 4K.

Also, like upscaling DVD, there are various upscaling technologies (built into either player or display) to upscale standard Blu-ray to 4K and some are better than others. Actually, there are some stand alone upscaling processors which do a much better job, although they come at a price.

Unfortunately, like Blu-ray before it, 4K is rather marketed badly. Most of the emphasis with Blu-ray was that it was simply better definition than DVD and many wondered if they really needed that - the reality of course is that a well mastered Blu-ray has a multitude of improvements over DVD (less compression, better sound, better colour) which wasn't always made clear to potential buyers.

Same is true with UHD - as a format it obviously offers better definition, but, again, the colour gamut can be considerably better than Blu-ray and when HDR settles down, it potentially will provide the best viewing experience we have ever been able to see domestically ie, the best TVs and video projectors...ever.

But, as usual, it's launch hasn't been the best, with the whole HDR mess...making HDR 10 standard the first mistake.

Also, different display technologies make standardization difficult. OLED, for example, which was potentially the next big display technology hasn't quite lived up to expectations, and struggles to provide the high levels of brightness (or nit level) for really great HDR.

And projectors which claim to offer HDR really don't have the required brightness levels...hopefully laser light sources will eventually sort that out though.

Long and short...4K is still a bit of a mine field but will undoubtedly be the future of TV.

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
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 - posted October 24, 2016 11:45 AM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I expect it will be 8k in a year or two!! Cannot see the point of it all really! I haven'nt even upgraded to Bluray and still run VHS through my Epson projector. I am not looking to count the skin blemishes on the actors faces or see the fine details and scratches in the props. I think you would need a massive screen to really notice the difference. The difference between HD and standard on my 32inch TV is hardly noticeable. Do we enjoy a film less if it was made before Dolby Surround ? I liken it to the "Rivet counters" of model railway enthusiasts. It is the performance that matters. Ken Finch. [Razz]

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Martin Davey
Film Handler

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From: Southampton UK
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 - posted October 24, 2016 12:30 PM      Profile for Martin Davey   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Davey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I got a digital HD LCD projector and a screen in the summer of 2015. The screen is 7ft across and the viewing distance is 8 foot. It is incredible. It is the best piece of technology I have got for many years. Even some DVDs if they have been mastered well, look perfectly watchable. One day we will all have 4k of some sort, it is only a matter of time. It is difficult to go out and buy a non HD screen nowadays!
When I watch Blu rays I am always very satisfied with the result, plus a properly balance surround system does help a lot too with the presentation. I just feel that I am in a cinema, with out an annoying audience! In a real cinema I always enjoyed 'scope films but at home I do prefer films that meet the 16x 9 format. I never watch any films on the 37” TV since installing this, just normal TV programmes. Even the old silent films and British Transport films just work so much better when viewed at this size. It's fun observing the actors in the background seeing how well they are doing their job. I found I could see the 'rainbow' effect with DLP so went LCD.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted October 24, 2016 01:20 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ultimately, Ken, it is just about enjoying the escapism of the movie.

And if your set up provides you with that, then that's perfect!

But when better quality presentation enhances that experience...well I think many of us enjoy that also.

Never technologically just for the sake of it.

That leads to awful things like music reproduction using MP3. Lol! 🙂

Martin, I agree that Blu-ray and HD projection at home has given us the best way yet to appreciate the many skills of the talented folk involved in film making over the decades in a domestic environment.

And this only adds to the enjoyment!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted October 24, 2016 03:23 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
On a 32" TV Ken, the difference between full HD Blu Ray or DVD presentation would hardly be noticeable, Put that image up on a 10ft screen, then you begin to realise how drastic the differences really are!

It will be the same again from full HD to 4k, then to 10k etc etc.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted October 24, 2016 04:29 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also, let's not forget that whatever ends up on any form of exhibition is ideally the ideal choice of the film maker ("movie" maker), cinematographer, set designer, production designer, costume designer, musical composer, sound effects designer, sound mixer, etc...etc...etc.

Better quality presentation simply presents the best form of exhibition to all of these crafted people and enhances the experience.

I see that the "Cinema Home Choice" article on super 8 has been discussed on the Real Magic forum and applaud the whole advocate of this on going hobby, and celluloid presentation at home...my goodness, I'm one of it's biggest fans.

But in this day and age, if we want to watch a recent cinema (videma) release at home, we have to accept certain critera.

That doesn't mean seeing every skin blemish (I only make TV, so what do I know, but I frequently use, for example a 1/4 black promist filter when shooting CU interviews in HD just to avoid this very unflattering approach).

Point is, the drive here isn't simply for more definition, that's somewhat missing the point of this evolution as artistic approach to photography always remains, but that better formats give it more options.

Personally, I've seen movies both new and classic over the last few years, presented on Blu-ray, such that I have so much more respect and admiration for the people that made them.

I doubt that I would ever have been able to admire such craft when presented on lesser formats, other than running 35mm at home, and that this has considerably enhanced my enjoyment of such movies at home.

I think that striving for better quality presentation simply elevates any art form and that given the multitude of artist involved in making a "movie", nothing is more true than when watching one in the highest quality available.

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Daniel Macarone
Expert Film Handler

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From: Summit NJ, USA
Registered: Nov 2015


 - posted October 24, 2016 09:36 PM      Profile for Daniel Macarone   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken - I still watch VHS, too. [Smile]

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

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From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted October 25, 2016 10:03 AM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
Absolutely agree with Rob. Thanks to today's technology, I view the ability to screen movies in my home cinema with such stunning picture and sound quality as the culmination of my 45 years of film collecting -- during which I was always seeking to attain such quality.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 25, 2016 10:12 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Take a look at the Aladdin screenshots over on the the other place John.
These better in many ways my HD projected presentation using a reasonably standard DVD player with the DVD of this movie.

Yes the Blu Ray can beat it just, of course... but still somewhat remarkable that a tiny Super 8mm frame on a 10ft screen can look this good!!

Not bad for 50yr old technology and a 22yr old print I'd say! [Smile] [Wink]

There is still a huge argument for the very best of both worlds, and of course, the reason why we are still all on here!

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

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From: Colorado U.S.A.
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 - posted October 25, 2016 10:26 AM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Andrew -- I'm not knocking Super 8, but as we all know, print consistency just isn't there across the same titles, and can vary widely -- something that today's technology easily mitigates.

Again, I've been collecting films for 45 years, and very much know that quality for one or a handful of titles isn't representative across the entire range. Print consistency isn't a hallmark of film collecting.

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Del Phillipson
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 - posted October 25, 2016 10:34 AM      Profile for Del Phillipson   Email Del Phillipson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At some point you have to draw the line. I'm more than happy with the set up I have. I have looked at the 4k projectors but thought wait a while and they will come down in price, while I'm waiting, news of the imminent arrival of 8k is here, you cannot keep buying disc after disc after disc just to keep up with technology, I did that in the noughties paying a fortune for my dvd's, now look, they are worthless and I bet there are some I haven't even watched yet. Just be content with what you have.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 25, 2016 10:37 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed John but on nearly all the later stuff from Derann (85 onwards),you'd be very unlucky to find a bad film of poor print quality unless a white box special of course.

Same can be said of many many others from this era from Germany and the U.S.

Far more than a handful John, that's for sure!

It's only the old faded stuff that tends to be from inferior master material, printed to a budget and can also be very grainy on inferior earlier stock, I find.

Equally, I've had some and seen some very poor DVD transfers at times, especially in the early days of this technology surfacing and many made from older and in some cases, worn inferior master material, just the same as film often could be.

The thing that winds my dial out of screening any disc, is the time it takes you to get to the movie itself.
Often you are forced to watch trailers, adverts and make choices to your viewing preferences in the main menu that can take an age to navigate at times.

I usually shout the wife in to the watch the movie about 20 minutes after I've put the disc in just so the beginning of the film can be got at and paused.
She hates trailers and padding.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 25, 2016 11:31 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, just to be clear, I'd never knock the capabilities of super 8 and still run film as often as possible.

In reality, DVD, whilst a massive improvement on VHS, was far from perfect really and super 8 prints like the best Disneys still provided a better viewing experience.

Blu-ray is when things began to change.

That said, I have certain super 8 titles that whilst arguably look and certainly sound better in HD, I still love to screen and wouldn't ever part with.

And 8K isn't imminent. Not even realistically coming soon.

Still too many issues to sort out with 4K!!

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

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From: Colorado U.S.A.
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 - posted October 25, 2016 11:35 AM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
Agree regarding your comments about the quality of earlier DVDs, Andrew -- that's why I waited until the technology advanced (that is, picture and sound quality-wise) to the point that it warranted building a home theatre.

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Phil Murat
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From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 25, 2016 12:44 PM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Goodevening,

I am particularly interested in this TIP as I have not invested yet in a Videoprojector.

Prices & Performances look attractive (Xenon Light Power, Colours Correcting, Upscaling.......) and Quality / Price rate is competitive.

I think BluRay system is enough at this time.

It should be interesting to make a direct comparison between materials available (BLURAY vs S8 for a same title made from the same negative source....)

Is the Upscaling 100% efficient?

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 25, 2016 02:10 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phil, Blu-ray is the format to go for currently - the range of titles available at sensible prices and the outstanding quality make it the perfect format for movie lovers, and it is no longer that expensive to buy a quality player.

Projector wise, I'd suggest setting yourself a budget and then getting demonstrations of what is available before deciding - it doesn't matter how good a review is, only seeing the image for yourself will be important.

That said, you will need a full HD 1080p 24Hz capable projector to take full advantage of Blu-ray.

Most projectors are, but some cheaper models aren't quite up to the job.

Technology wise, you have LCD projectors (such as the Panasonic range, which are excellent), or DLP based machines, which arguably have better motion and contrast, but, in the case of single chip DLP machines, can suffer form irritating "rainbow" effect - look around the internet for more information.

Slightly more expensive, you have the LCOS system which both Sony and JVC projectors use.

Personally, I think JVC LCOS (or D-ILA) as they call it, is the best domestic projection image available.

But, it is about budget and expectation, so my advice is do a lot of internet research on the differing technologies and always, always find a good retailer who can give you a good range of demonstrations.

In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone else advises, so long as you are happy with the results.

PS - Just for anyone interested and not intended in any way as self promotion, but I recently shot this and used a lot of promist filtration to take the "edge" off HD while shooting - just thought it may demonstrates that definition doesn't always rule over stylistic choice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0801p64/books-that-made-britain-north-west-england

[ October 25, 2016, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Rob Young. ]

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Phil Murat
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 671
From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 26, 2016 09:47 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Rob,

Thanks for all these informations.

I keep an eye on that !!!

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Del Phillipson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 679
From: Derbyshire, England
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted October 26, 2016 10:53 AM      Profile for Del Phillipson   Email Del Phillipson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There you go Rob, don't shoot the messenger :-)

Sharp has announced plans to sell an 8K television screen from October.
Although several companies have developed "super hi-vision" resolution test models, this is the first such TV to be made commercially available.
The 8K format provides 16 times as many pixels as 1080p high definition. It creates an image so detailed that it can appear three-dimensional.
However, the 85in (2.16m) device's 16m yen ($133,000; £86,000) price is likely to limit sales.
Interest is expected to come mainly from broadcasters and other companies involved in testing the format.

Sharp is promoting the 8K TV on its website and will show it to the public soon
One analyst suggested it would not become a serious proposition for members of the public until the turn of the decade.
"We're not expecting 8K TVs targeted at consumers to be released until at least 2016, and we don't expect they will cross one million units until after 2019," said Abhi Mallick, from IHS Technology.
"Japan's NHK is the only broadcaster so far to announce plans to create and broadcast 8K content."
But he added that the relatively small size of people's homes in Japan might mean many families would not be interested.
"Japan's a region in which the average size of TVs sold tends to be smaller, and we think the minimum size 8K TVs would be sold at would be 65in."
He added that for the time being, he expected manufacturers to focus their efforts on trying to convince families to buy 4K sets instead.
They provide a quarter of the resolution of 8K, but are being made in sizes of up to about 100in to create "cinema-like" experiences in the home.

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