8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » General Yak   » Manual thread or Auto thread. (Page 2)

- UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Manual thread or Auto thread.
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 20, 2016 06:20 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew its the professional projectionist in me that dislikes
auto threading.
Sorts out the men from the boys and the tools from the toys so
to speak.

They did try a form of auto threading and endless loop projection
on 35mm pro-projectors and it was a bloody joke and disaster.
They thought it would be more convenient and economic in the
long term so that any one could operate the machines and do away
with skilled projectionists to save money...FAILED !!!

The problem with convenience is that it can be retrograde in many
ways.

I mean just look at the horrible sound of CDs / Mp3 players etc
all in the name of convenience.

So for me the convenience of auto thread is a pain in arse really.
After all most of "amateur Joe Public " managed quite well with
manual threading very well to operate the projectors before the
marketing men made auto thread the norm on most machines.

In short Auto thread is nothing more than an un-necessary gimmick
that became the norm for the amateur.
There was absolutely no necessity for it and still to this day no
need for it.

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 20, 2016 10:22 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
We shall just have to wait and see then David how many agree on anything other than professional 35mm and 70mm kit.

As said, I can't speak for 16mm because I will never own one(By choice).
Slot loaders appear highly popular though for those that do choose to dabble with such things.

For Super 8mm, you would never change my mind.
What's said, is based on years and years of trouble free experiences when all is spot on.

In fact, had you had sampled the delights of the Beaulieu mechanism, you'd have realised that this method is actually a cross between your beloved manual thread method and the benefits and convenience of auto thread.

Sort of a kind of Hybrid method in modern day terms.
A breeze in use and an absolute delight! [Smile] [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 20, 2016 11:16 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Auto thread never bothered me. I know on most 16mmor manual feed I think the 8mm gauge was too small and fidgety for that plus you had a lot of novices to film in the 1970s. I always liked a projector with a clear film path you could get at the film if anything went wrong that's why I liked the 180s with the swing lamp. You only encountered any problems with dodgy leaders or splices people had put on. From memory the very rigid green leader you occasionally encountered caused most bother with not forming a loop or causing a lot of noise going through. It got to the point I cut it off and spliced my own clear and academy leader when I saw it.

 |  IP: Logged
Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011

- posted November 20, 2016 02:31 PM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am with David on this. Although never a "professional" projectionist, I have always preferred manual threading. It is good to have an auto loop former though on the lower loop. It is also nice to be able to see what is happening as projection proceeds. I like my Eumig 810D but it is a bind if a join goes. Also some machines are quite finicky about of the feed in trimming shape. I know ! Everyone tells me I am old fashioned. Ken Finch.

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 20, 2016 03:01 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Trimming is paramount Ken you're quite right. I personally don't see this as a hindrance though I have to say.

Do once...done forever!

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 20, 2016 04:22 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is something I have tried for myself.
Gently kink some white leader in a couple of places.
Feed this into some Auto threaders and its concertina and
jam up time and time to replace the white leader.

Do the same on a manual threader ... no problems whatever.
Even when making loops of the right size.

Okay to be fair most manufacturers of Auto threaders warn of
such things and to make sure the leader is free of kinks or bends or coils.

I still view Auto threaders as an unnecessary evil and marketing
ploy and gimmick.

In fact all manufacturers could have kept costs down by not going
to the bother of designing the damned things in the first place.

[Wink] [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

Cheers Ken I will buy you a pint or whatever if we ever meet. Yes manual threading can be finicky but fun too. You get faster with practice. [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

Andrew I did have the chance and funds to by a Bealieu but was swayed by the build and manual threading of the Fumeo. The Mono
and Optical sound closed the sale for my needs.
I am indifferent to Stereo sound tracks as most of my favourite
films are in good old mono sound...or silent ... and Monochrome. [Big Grin]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 20, 2016 04:41 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Men, Boys, Tools, toys...

To Concertina, or not concertina, that is the question?
https://vimeo.com/166508805
....Once again David,
just in case you didn't believe it first time of posting. [Wink]

Seriously though, even a slight crease to leader etc etc should be more than manageable to ANY good healthy Auto Threading mechanism.

Incidentally, if anyone finds this video drawn out and boring, just imagine how long the manual thread version would be!! [Big Grin] [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 21, 2016 01:07 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did you know that the first Auto Threader was manufactured
by the Eastman Kodak Company as early as 1928 ?

It was a 16mm Double perf Silent machine.
The KODASCOPE MODEL B .

It was a sales gimmick aimed at those who were very wealthy.
Some have still survived. [Big Grin]

Andrew I did see this viddy before.
Still prefer manual threading any day.
Although Auto thread could have its uses if I become to disabled
with my hands due to arthritis or something in the future.

So until that day if it ever dawns I will always think Auto threading as a mere gimmick no matter how good it may be.
Also as I have also stated for decades ... " Auto threading is
for lazy sods or totally incompetent wanna be projectionists "

Hahahahahaha !!! [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

- posted November 24, 2016 12:01 AM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The projectors I use the most are manual threading. In 16mm my main projector is a B+H JAN. Some may not like to thread one of these, but I love it. Same for the Kalart Victor 70 series projectors I own. I do use auto threaders like the B+H 2585 in 16mm and like them. I have more fun and enjoyment operating 8mm B+H Filmo Master projectors than I do from operating any S-8mm projector like the Elmo and Eumigs etc. I like all my projectors but I prefer manual threading most of the time for the shear fun of hands on operations like a real projectionist. [Smile]

--------------------
Live Free or Die

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 24, 2016 08:55 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David I am glad to read you prefer manual threading to auto.

More " hands on " is the key meaning here.

I see something of a contradiction amongst some film collectors
who argue that film collecting is more tangible than collecting
DVDs / Blu-Rays. Then have a preference for auto threading
projectors rather than manual threading.

Bloody hell !!! You cant get any more tangible than the hands on
experience of manually threading a projector.
All the rest of the tangible parts of the hobby is in a way
secondary to this as far as I am concerned.

I was manually threading projectors at 12 years old and enjoyed
and still do every minute of it. So it has really nothing to do
with my career as a Professional Projectionist.

Its a shame that most collectors have in a way been forced
to accept auto thread as the "norm" due to the manufacturers
gimmicks. No need for it whatever. [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 24, 2016 09:57 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
OHhhhh..this one will just run and run and run forever won't it.

Here is why I find Auto thread the best method for Super 8mm projection purposes for those that got it right to begin with.

Ps it has nothing whatsoever to do whichever is the more tactile, nothing whatsoever to do with which requires even a mediocre amount of hand skills or nothing whatsoever to do with toys, boys, professional, amateur, tools or gender,manliness or any other such like spurious theories.

1/ its quicker
2/ it allows you to project any short film as well as long ones quickly and easily
3/ it never damages film when working properly
4/ because as Maurice has already aptly pointed out, threading a Super 8mm Projector by hand, time in and time out, is nothing short of a complete ball ache!

One which would completely stop me ever wanting to view any of my short films and trailers!!
Life's just too short, without making drab affairs any slower.

My Great Grandmother, used to use a mangle, how she would have loved a decent tumble dryer and electricity!
That's it, I'm done.
Nuff said! [Big Grin] [Wink]

[ November 24, 2016, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted November 24, 2016 11:38 AM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
That's it, I'm done.
Can we count on that?

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 24, 2016 11:48 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
On this matter Bill, you sure can! [Big Grin] [Wink]

Nobody forces you to read any of this Bill.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 24, 2016 11:49 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I prefer manual threading as it totally eliminates any possibility of film damage. My only manual threading projector is my Bolex 18-5 standard 8mm, and it is a joy to thread up and run.
Of my auto-threading super 8 machines, here is how I would rate them in terms of their percentage success rate to flawlessly thread up a reel of film in good condition with no kinks but with some curvature to the leader:

Eumig S938 Stereo 95%
Eumig 820 Sonomatic 85%
Elmo GS1200 70%
Eumig 926GL 60%

As you can see I rate the Eumig 938 extremely high indeed. It seems to be incredibly reliable, accepting just about any leader thrown at it.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 24, 2016 11:57 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh come on guys life is not THAT short where you don't have the
time to manually lace up a projector.

Oh well there you go! Watch you don't strain yourself switching on the projector or manually rewinding that reel on the rewind arms. If you have any.

Now where did I leave that mech cranking handling for my silent
projector ?

Oh there it is by that pile of 35mm Nitrate Film Stock.

Ah !!!! Sheer Bliss.

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Paul ... THANK YOU my friend. I rest my case !
[Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted November 24, 2016 12:08 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I knew Andy wouldn't be done!

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 24, 2016 12:12 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill ... Time will tell ... Hahahahaha !!!!
[Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted November 24, 2016 12:58 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no "religion" when it comes to this.

I ran 35mm and apprenticed on 70mm, and yes, there you need manual threading for many reasons.

At home:
Standard-8 (Bolex M-8): manual threading, because that's what the machine offers.

Super-8 (Elmo ST-1200HD): Auto-thread, because it's my choice of projector for the sound/pic quality, and that's what it offers.

16MM (Eiki SSL and 3500 Xenon): Slot load, which is very convenient for shorter films and/or features you want to end early.

I like to play projectionist, but I also want to sit and enjoy the film without too many interruptions. That's why I have an Eiki long-play unit which works with 8- and 16-mm: so I can load up a film, sit down and watch. I keep an eye on the set-up, of course, but I don't want to work constantly when I watch the film (changeovers and such.)

Best of both worlds: running real film, and actually watching it too.

BTW, I have the Kodak Kodascope B; the auto-load works well even today :-)

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 24, 2016 04:36 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Claus thanks for that I had a gut feeling someone here
had a Kodak Kodascope B that was still working.

I get the best of both worlds when it comes to manual threading and long play.
I get it from my Fumeo 9119 Super 8mm projector.
I do have Spondon long play arms but rarely use them these day.

I too use a Bolex M8 for my Standard 8mm silent. Its been converted
to 200 Watt quartz lighting and is very bright indeed.
One of the best machines ever made from any era I think.

Not only do I like to play at projectionist but like to play
at Cinemas too.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged
Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 24, 2016 05:24 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm hard pushed to remember a manual loading super 8 projector was that when they were powered by gas???

The only super 8 projectors I ever had a problem with auto loading were

Cinerex - I was young and daft and didn't know any better and I was graduating from a Royal

Boiex - sold to me a fellow collector after I had I understood why he sold it

Eumig - you needed 3 hands to remove film even when you had digtial dexterity

Other than that the only problem I ever encountered was usually caused by other collectors flossing their teeth on the leader before they sold the film to you. Another laugh was splicing by the blind or the use of sellotape "saves splices using darning needle for sprocket holes" even manual loading can't save you there. I once found a sticking plaster mid reel. Wasn't a big one obviously he had used scrissors to cut it a bit etc and I think it had already been used. A bit of blood but it does save money for the groceries.

 |  IP: Logged
Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

- posted November 24, 2016 09:47 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was thinking [Roll Eyes] that if you were to convert a GS1200 to simple manual threading like the M8, that in turn could eliminate most of if not all those green guides that can when worn scratch film. A manual spring down lock for the sound head [Roll Eyes] etc...mmmm food for thought [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 24, 2016 09:54 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Or Graham, simply buy Alessandro's fine machine, continue enjoying all the benefits of auto thread while also enjoying the fact, you need never worry about scratched films or worn green plastic guides, ever again.☺

Win win! 😊😊

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

- posted November 25, 2016 02:16 AM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just buy it Andrew! Clearly you want to. Save me the decision...

--------------------
VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

 |  IP: Logged
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted November 25, 2016 02:32 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
My collection of films can only be protected once Steven, no matter how many of these I may have.

It'd be nice to see another's collection, similarly protected to safeguard their future.

Two machines, is already one more than you can ever use at once. [Big Grin] [Razz]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

- posted November 25, 2016 04:19 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes you could do that Graham with the GS1200.
I have been looking at mine recently and thinking the same.

Or you could buy that one Andrew suggests then worry about
other parts of this overrated and over engineered Japanese
machine going faulty somewhere else.
Then face the problem of having to cannibalise another machine
for parts.

Great fun this 8mm hobby aint it ?

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged


All times are Central
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
- Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2