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Author Topic: Destruction of faded and pinky/red prints.
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 14, 2017 03:38 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been in touch with some "old timer" film collector
friends of mine here in the U.K. the past couple of days.

It turns out we have all been binning our old and faded red pinky/red prints on all gauges.

We all felt it was time to start taking some action to get these
things out of circulation for good.

I know this news may shock some collectors but we have now all
taken an oath to continue to do so well into the future.

The cull will go on.

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:04 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Its a shame that David. Many titles i can think of on eight are unique to the fading Eastman stock. Most of the opticals for example.

While i feel it is morally correct not to sell these prints to unaware potential customers, people like Vidar here for example, regulary provide a new home for such prints to be enjoyed for far more years yet.
Also many ive seen him show, look perfectly acceptable still, once they have decent colour correction filters placed in front of the primary lens.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:04 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know what David, i am pleased you are doing this, i myself have discarded one or two 8mm that were red, i really cant see why anyone would want to sit through an all red film, especially given how many excellent colour films are out there and not to mention the very reliable b/w films.
A few years ago i did a thread asking if we should start destroying these worn red and pink films now and just stop them going around. we already started selling some off that are on the turn.
Lets be honest, like dvd/blu ray or not they are a dam good tool for showing side by side our cine films. [Wink]

Andy, i do take your point on films that do still have plenty of colours left though, but as far as a red or pink film image is concerned i think they need to be taken out of our hobby now. [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:06 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Two very opposite views there then, right from the outset! [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
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 - posted April 14, 2017 04:08 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andy, i did add a bit in there as your reply was added while i was typing [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:10 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
[Wink]

Just lets all remember here, once something is destroyed, a piece of history is gone forever.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:21 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i see what you are saying there Andy but i think to carry on passing these prints around just makes our hobby a bit redundant.
iF I had an audience in and put on a red or pink film they would laugh at me. There are plenty of good films out there to be had still and the way to show off our hobby is to get rid of the trash to ensure cine film is still great.
i fully understand people are happy to sit through a red film, (im not talking about films just turning i mean red or pink),but for me its a waste of time and i cant see any enjoyment in it, on this alone i would prefer to project a disc. [Wink]
I am not putting anyone down who is happy to watch red,merely agreeing to get shot of them and to add it isn't for me.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 14, 2017 04:43 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Nor me Tom, but this is a very subjective topic and there are just so so many different degrees and types of fade.

I would simply offer all but beetroot films out to anyone who wants them along with an accompanying screenshot or two.
That way the deadwood sorts itself out.

I'd look upon it in a similar manner to how our rescue centres deal with say a 13 yr old rescue dog who had sadly become recently detached from its loyal and loving owner due to bereavement.
The dog also has many complications involving quite steep regular vet bills for medication needed.

Thankfully our rescue centre does not choose to put this animal to sleep unless no owner can first be found to continue to show the dog the love and affection it deserves in its later life.

Only as a very last resort, would a lethal injection be administered here, despite the majority of potential dog owners looking for a much younger and vibrant, healthier pet all around.
I salute all of those people who do give a home to an animal in such circumstances.

[ April 15, 2017, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted April 14, 2017 05:51 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Given the number of prints that have turned or are turning red then this might destroy a hell of a lot!
For beginners they can provide a cheap start to a collection and then the individual can decide to keep or on sell.
I have a few red prints that are only available in that condition.
Now if the dreaded VS starts then it's time to throw.
But this opinion is just mine and for now that's what I do [Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Southern England
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 - posted April 15, 2017 12:51 AM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am certainly binning some of the worst prints. Especially if they are both fully gone in colour and have other problems like scratches or perf damage. But only the worst condition stuff.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Burton Sundquist
Master Film Handler

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From: Burnaby, B.C. Canada
Registered: Feb 2017


 - posted April 15, 2017 01:05 AM      Profile for Burton Sundquist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...Alert...Don't destroy your movies..
This is not F451...there are possibilities. A member of this forum offers gells to help making the viewing of films going through this aging process much more retro and allows the audience a cinema experience... There are options to those who cherish film...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 15, 2017 01:25 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
For the items like Steven speaks of above, best thing is to scrap them, for anything else, follow Burton's advice. [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 15, 2017 02:07 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Im tredding carefully here as,like i said,i am and have sold on films which are turning or are more or less red, however, a good example of one i think is for the bin is curruntly on fleabay. Its a copy of towering inferno. The images show a red film and the description is perfectly honest. It states red and scratched. But starts at over 100. It shud be £1.
Sitting through three hours of a red film would bring no enjoyment at all and if you enjoy movies as we all do i cant see how it could.
A few being kept as mentioned for education purposes is ine thing but keeping 100% RED/PINK films just doesnt cut it for me.
I,ll repeat, i have no problems with films on the turn,(a high percentage of films sold these days) [Wink]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted April 15, 2017 03:10 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ive binned films,some recently.
this includes B/W films that are such poor quality,not just scratches but the film base breaking down,or the picture bleached out in places.
This stuff is just best taken out of circulation for ever.

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 15, 2017 03:35 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom nice to read you are adhering to the same principles and
reasons as other die hard old timer collectors here in the UK.

Andrew while we may be destroying a piece of history as you state
the titles that are being disposed of are easily available on other mediums. So no loss for posterity at all.
Also even using filters will never restore a print to its former
colour ever.

Yes badly worn and scratched and damaged prints need to be taken out of circulation too.
Unless of course they are extremely rare . That includes B/W stock.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted April 15, 2017 05:50 AM      Profile for Melvin England     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In all the 14 months or so that I have been on this forum, this topic has left me the most confused as far as which side of the fence I should be standing on.

Up until reading this.... complete with its very creditable "Yes" and "No" arguments,there have always been TWO items that I have regarded as sacrilege to destroy. The first.... vinyl records.No matter what condition, I just cannot bring myself to stick them in the bin. I just CAN'T and that's that.
The second..... is film.It is just completely against my principle. I am here to watch, collect, preserve, enjoy and, I suppose, promote this wonderful medium, not to cull it.

But,wait a minute, a lot of reels are so far gone that, realistically, they are beyond viewing.Are they r e a l l y worth keeping in circulation? How many times has one bought a film on Ebay and in your heart of hearts have been disappointed in the colour? Your instinct is telling you this seller was just offloading a pile of sh**e..... or are you guilty of selling one,knowing it has almost come to the end of its useful life? It would give greater piece of mind knowing the chances of a print you are buying from wherever will be pretty good, quality-wise! So,do I re-think my principle?

There again,most people in our fraternity are damn decent people who are quite happy to be up front about descriptions of their films.... almost to the point of shooting themselves in the foot sometimes. So,is there any need to cull? By doing so,these titles become scarcer and what follows scarcity? Value.Which means increased prices. We are regularly passing comment about the stupid prices on Ebay some people (hopefully not from the regular fraternity)are charging already. Do we want to add more fuel to this fire? We want more people to join us,not leave. Surely,the answer to this must be to either give the films away to a friend who may show the remotest interest in the hobby.... or sell them on Ebay for a stupid price in the right direction (very very low),with an honest description so that maybe... just maybe... it would encourage casual browsers to finally take the plunge.

So,whereabouts am I going to make my stand? Well, there is something that one has the right to and cannot be controlled by another person.That is..... action and opinion. Nothing I could do,or would want to do,would stop David and his friends doing what they are doing because, just like you and me, they have a right to do exactly what they like with their own possessions. If that is their choice, then so be it. One may understand the reasons behind their actions without necessarily agreeing with them.

Personally, I won't be binning anything.. be it vinyl or celluloid...After all this debate,it still remains against my principle.

The argument for and against a cull really boils down to the old saying "Everyone to Everyones Own."

.

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"My name is for my friends!"

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted April 15, 2017 07:40 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no interest at all in watching a faded print while there are usually other ways of viewing the film.
However, there are many collectors who, for whatever reason, are happy with faded prints
So, why destroy them? Sell them on honestly, or give them for free, to those who want them.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 15, 2017 07:59 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good answer there Melvin, & i do hear what you are saying on this subject. I think for me red is simply no good, the film cannot be repaired or colours retrieved so like everything else its use is no longer.I guess if anyone is happy to sit through a red or pink movie thats fine, if this was the only way to see a movie i would say save it but it isn't and unlike Video tapes in the early to mid 80s, today's digital mediums are quite stunning, they are not reel film nor would i compare them, but they are certainly very good so i can see no reason to prolong cine film if it is beyond reasonable viewing ability. [Wink]

Mike, also a fair point as long as, as well as being faded its full of scratches and repairs all the way through. [Wink]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted April 15, 2017 08:04 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The stuff ive binned has been of very poor quality,not just lines,but unsteady both verticaly and horizontaly"ie its shrunk" very unsharp and the film base showing signs of breaking down.
it does the hobby no favours keeping this sort of print in circulation.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 15, 2017 08:17 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
& this David is exactly what i mean, its no use to anyone.No point in getting sentimental about "stuff". [Wink]

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Melvin England
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From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted April 15, 2017 09:16 AM      Profile for Melvin England     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Such an interesting topic receiving healthy debate from both sides of the discussion.

I feel that after re-reading the posts on this subject, plus the new ones since my last post, particularly David Roberts recent comments, I feel I must indicate where the boundary of my "principle" extends to with regards to throwing away film.

If there was firm evidence of the film base breaking down, severe sprocket damage on most of it, mould all over it, vinegar syndrome or severe shrinkage, then, yes,let us be reasonable, it is beyond recovery and justifiably discarded (particularly with vinegar syndrome as it is so contagious). I once was given a 200' film by someone who thought they were doing me a favour. It had..... wait for it..... 150 splices in it! On that occasion I made an exception to my "principle" which I think was justified.

However, a perfectly watchable pink/red film with at least acceptable sound and low evidence of scratching, in my mind, would not warrant the bin.

.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted April 15, 2017 10:36 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I was just having recollections of the Elvis features I have and treasure.

Most of these are fading now as everyone is aware of the Viacom prints. They are not red ( with the exception of one second print that was mis sold to me), but they are fading nevertheless.

They all have some varying degrees of each of the primary colours left in them and they each have all been recorded subsequently by myself into booming stereo. They each sound superb.
It would take me a very very long time yet to deem these prints completely undesirable to view imo and I'd hope, many other people's opinions.
Therefore it's films like these and many of the better airline prints, that I'd be reluctant to call time on even if I one day had to use compensation filters to still be able to enjoy them.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted April 15, 2017 11:00 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many years back I knowingly bought a 16mm red print of the Roger Corman classic, "Tales of Terror".

It was only £20.00 from a dealer and honestly described as red, so I took a chance and really enjoyed screening it many times to family and friends.

The image was sharp and steady, despite being beetroot and everyone enjoyed it. However, that was the late 90's when DVD was just getting started.

Many years later, I had the scope DVD with lovely image and colour, so I binned the red pan & scan 16mm print.

Harsh, but I really couldn't see the point of it any more...

I don't honestly believe that the film makers would want their work to be viewed like that.

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Mike Newell
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 - posted April 15, 2017 11:00 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wouldn't accept or sell on red /pink prints. The dealers I dealt with on a regular basis knew that so in the good old days I was insulated against receipt of them. There are also pink laurel and hardy black and white prints. They have been printed incorrectly imported by a certain dealer and were touted around as brand new polyester prints. I bought 8 titles on promises and they were chronic. I know there are at least 10-20 prints of each title and that other collectors were stung at same time (1993). If we are disposing of dodgy prints can I recommend all those soft focus and scratchy prints that also do the rounds plus the diy splice jobs with sellotape that destroy projectors.

I think the comparison to vinyl is like washing your records in the sink using a scrubbing brush like the wee lad from spec savers ad.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted April 15, 2017 12:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been fairly lucky on my super 8 optical sound collection. Those that are not low fade, still have pretty good color and are in cold storage, and the low fade ones are just fine.

It does sadden me that so many great super 8 color features were saved on terrible quick fade eastman. i once had a feature film "Emperor of the North" (Le marvin excellent film!), that I've only run across just once, but it was already sadly faded to red. I so loved that film and so wished it would have been saved on low fade of some form, but alas ... no dice!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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