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» 8mm Forum   » General Yak   » Scrapping Faded Prints (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Scrapping Faded Prints
Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3714
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 13, 2018 02:09 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well its taking me this long just to get started to go through all the film formats, and those like this 16mm Scope print of Star Wars and many other 8mm prints are now heading the same way.

The good thing about getting rid of this stuff, is that in the process of throwing out the bad stuff and on inspection. I am coming across some films, that I have not watched in years and forgotton about that I can now place onto better reels, with a view to watch in the near future, films that are worth keeping....so its not all doom and gloom [Smile]
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Scope print of Star Wars....red as a beetroot [Frown]
 -
Reeling it off while keeping the reels and boxes for other films.
 -
The end result of those badly faded films [Frown]
 -

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1330
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted March 13, 2018 02:54 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm pretty sure that copy of Star Wars would have been snapped up by a collector, even though it is red. Why not sell it with that honest description, rather than dump or destroy it. It may not meet your requirements but I'm willing to bet others would love to have it.
Having said that I was never a great fan of Star Wars. [Cool]

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 13, 2018 03:52 AM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yes I think it would have sold people on ebay are buying films of umknown content and getting over £100 for them

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 433
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted March 13, 2018 04:08 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brave move. I've considered doing the same thing to make space myself.

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1001
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2018 04:23 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Terry and David. I've bought red prints and some of them are among my favourites. I think 'Star Wars' would fetch quite a high price; why destroy it and deny someone else the opportunity of enjoying it?. As well as being a collector, I like to think i'm also a conservationist.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 932
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 04:34 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark   Email Kevin Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham, I am sincerely sitting here applauding you for doing this so publicly - I have done the same myself many times as the Eastman (red and pink and almost clear film in some cases) and 60's / 70's Fuji (purple and rot in the emulsion) have come my way or gone off in my collection. Super 8, 16mm and 35mm, all chopped and dumped due to fade.

However, as I'm sure you will see as the replies to this thread come in, prepare yourself for a backlash as you are officially now a 'real film murderer' - so many collectors out there will hate the thought of even one frame of film being trashed let alone a whole reel or feature.

It would be different if it was a lost film, or one that had scenes in it no longer available elsewhere, as with some 35mm Nitrate my friends at Kaleidoscope took to Pathe and the BFI for me.

Thankfully these faded beyond watchable films are now out of the re-selling loop forever, making it impossible for any future owner to describe them as 'excellent condition' on one line of the description, then adding 'with colour fade' on the other, as often is the case.

Kevin

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1001
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2018 07:17 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does it matter if someone else sells it as long as the buyer is happy?. I'm happy with my red prints. There may not be the opportunity of getting the same title in IB Tech or low fade. One excuse given here before was that it was not how the director intended you to see it; neither was pan and scan, or B&W prints of colour films, so where do you stop?. What we are seeing here are two types, one who loves real film and want's to see it around for future generations, the other side are people who just want to watch a movie and don't care what form it takes. Instead of worrying what money others might make from a red print, why not make that money yourself?

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 795
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 07:26 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Done Graham

Best place for Red and damaged prints!!

Mike

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 932
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 07:37 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark   Email Kevin Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Robert

In some cases I would agree that below par prints can still mean a lot to the owner - I have fairly poor 16mm dupes of Citizen Kane and A Most Dangerous Game in my collection I still enjoy and project to myself but to an audience I would use the DVD or Bluray versions instead. My experience is most audiences don't give a hoot to where the light beam is coming from as long as it looks good and sounds good on screen.

The problem I have is particularly with colour prints that have really turned, totally pink or beetroot red or purple, impossible to improve even with filters - they re-surface time and time again to the point that people start to think this is the best real film can offer.

Hence my dislike of the use of the word 'stunning' in seller film condition descriptions - take away all the faded crap and stunning then becomes the expected norm - perhaps this is why dealers like part and fully faded prints to be out there it can only make the prices of the non faded 'stunning' prints go higher.

As for pan and scan, abridged, what the director intended etc. I don't see the relevance in comparison - faded is faded - there is nothing worst than seeing the Filmed In Technicolor logo in faded pink or red only hues.

Everyone to their own though and if watching a pink or magenta print floats your boat then so be it.

Kevin

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 795
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 07:43 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Star Wars scope print!! Way to go Graham one less in the world. Alec Guinness would be proud of you. Don't forget the Hats Off feature print. [Razz] [Razz] [Razz]

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 08:29 AM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Imagine vintage wine collectors throwing away bottles as they’re dusty or The National Trust knocking down stately homes because "they are not quite how they were when they were new".

Let’s throw away all our projectors as they are old? I think not!
This is possibly the worst post I’ve read here....ever. You’re no film god. In fact, how dare you use that title after such sacrilege! You have also thrown away money, in the scapping of that print!

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1001
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2018 08:49 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Simon, exactly my thoughts. Kevin, thank you for your reply to my post. The statement about 'this is not what the director intended us to see' was made in a former post about binning red prints, and I think the author was David Hardy. I know a lot of directors were not happy about Pan and Scan, hence my mentioning it. Would someone who got a mention for the best use of colour be happy that collectors had B&W prints.
Here is a screenshot of a film I bought last year' The Siege of the Saxons', I got this from a US seller, who fully described it, and supplied screenshots. Coming from the US I also had extra postage and import tax, but I am very pleased to own it; something that would have been denied if everyone was of the same mind to bin prints. Even David Hardy who formerly agreed with their destruction is now talking of selling them on Ebay. There are some chancers on Ebay, but I don't think it's in the proportions that we are led to believe on here. I don't think some of the sellers here are that honest; how often do you see anyone mention jump cuts, clipped dialogue, and emulsion scratches in their description. Another popular pastime among Super 8 collectors is re-recording soundtracks. I have yet to see a film advertised as 'The professionally recorded soundtrack has been re-recorded by an amateur'.
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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 932
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 09:14 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark   Email Kevin Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Simon - you have taken two very extreme cases there where you know the difference is obvious - of course dust the wine bottle down and the contents are hopefully perfect and still drinkable (not always the case I can assure you) and property of any type can be refurbished, even Graded listed property with supervision.

Our hobby unfortunately does not have these benefits - faded to pink or beet red film is just that, faded, worn out, it's had it - we throw away worn out clothing, too expensive to repair consumer electronics, piles of read newspapers and magazines, warped scratched unplayable records, etc. why should cine films be any different?

Robert - sincerely I honestly don't mean to offend anyone with my posts and if you are pleased with a film whatever the colour fade I am happy for you, but for me I can no longer enjoy these films unless all or nearly all the colour range is still there.

Kevin.

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 795
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 09:20 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wine to Vinegar would be a better comparison.

Least it will stop some chancer selling it on, I never accepted pink prints they are defective in fact some dealers would know my form and if I enquired about a print that was pink they would advise me accordingly. I didn't accept scratched prints ether but I know some collectors are quite happy with tramlines.

Bottom line depends how fussy you are. What's the opinion on out of sync or stripe falling off in parts prints plus the occasional clown who used sellotape or sticking plaster for splices!!!

In summary if you are prepared to accept pink you will take vinegar and not the chip shop variety.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6601
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 09:22 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What if the bottle wasn't dusty but the wine turned vinegar?

There's not a wine collector in the world that doesn't tip those down the sink.

-past a certain point they aren't wine anymore no more than an unwatchable red print is really a film.

Graham has taken a stand here. He was active in that thread a couple of years ago where a red Star Wars print went well above $3,000. He could have cashed in too, but he did what he thought was right, just as he said he would in that same thread.

-That's the sign of an honest man.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1001
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2018 09:23 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually Kevin, 1 of my red prints is immaculate, it's just the colour change, it's not worn out. What I can't understand, and I would be grateful if you could explain it to me; is that knowing there are people who would like to own these prints, why do you deny them that pleasure. I have lots of old records, some single sided going back to 1907; they contain a lot of hiss, but still playable. It may not be for you, but it's Ok for someone else. It just reminds me of that fable of the dog in the manger , 'I don't want it and no one else is having it'. Once you have sold a print and am satisfied that you got your asking price, are you really concerned what the buyer does with it after, keep it or re-sell it?

Look forward to seeing the destruction video on Vimeo.

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1512
From: United States
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 10:01 AM      Profile for Joe Taffis   Email Joe Taffis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've trashed many faded and red features and digests over the years, both super 8 and 16mm, right off the rewinder and into a garbage bag as they're not recyclable as far as I know.
As others have stated, I also believe that they need to be taken out of circulation. I just wouldn't feel right about selling them or even giving them away...

--------------------
Joe Taffis

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 932
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 10:03 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark   Email Kevin Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Robert

The 'I don't want it so no-one else can have it' quote is the polar opposite of my character as anyone who knows me will testify.

I too had lots of records - thousands at one point as I was a long time record collector and part time DJ in the 80's to 90's - playing rock n roll, rNb rockabilly and blues - all sold now as I found the format too inconvenient to enjoy with our then young children around and moved to CD instead - however, those records were all sold on or given to friends - many were one side London Records demos, some blues acetates etc. but not unplayable rubbish or I would again have headed to the landfill with them.

This is where all of us will differ in our opinions - at what point does something (anything) become no longer worth keeping? And then of course who would like it? Shall I spend years trying to find a willing recipient? You mentioned David Hardy I believe he tried for months to pass on free films and equipment to no avail when he was moving house. Then the minute he confirms them as dumped someone complains!

I think I have one faded 16mm feature left, a Hammer Frankenstein feature I bought last year fully aware from the seller description it was faded as I wanted to try and project it as true black and white using a combination of filters illuminated by my Eiki 500w xenon but this proved impossible to achieve satisfactorily.

If you would like it for free send me your address by PM and I will be pleased to give it to you. I can tell from your posts you genuinely would enjoy the film and not see it just as a future profitable resale on Ebay or elsewhere.

The remaining faded beyond watchable prints (to me) from my collection have already gone - I've kept my IB Tech, Agfa and Eastman LPP prints, some on Kodak SP and of course Kodachrome too. I don't see it as depriving anyone of anything though - just creating space as needed, enabling the reuse and possible sale of the now empty reels and cans.

Kevin

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1001
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2018 10:20 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Kevin,
thank you for your reply, and thank you for the offer of the film; it's not my type of viewing, but I do thank you for the offer, that was very generous. I think David was offering a 35mm projector free last year, but had no offers. I never saw anything regarding 16mm. I do know he dumped one print that someone would have bought had it been offered for sale. We both have different views on the subject, so I'll leave it at that. One man's meat, etc. Thanks again for your offer.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 9680
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 13, 2018 11:23 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all depends on the film ...

I once has a faded super 8 feature of "Emporer of the North" (Lee marvin classic from the 70's), it wasn't entirely beet red, but it has certainly lost some of it's color, about a 6 out of 10 ...

But i really wish i had kept it as it is the only print of that feature that I've ever seen come up and these days, i have some pretty good filters that would have made the print look a good deal better, not perfect, but better.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1330
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted March 13, 2018 11:48 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to agree with Robert. Why deny someone else's pleasure just because it does not suit your particular needs. Seems somewhat selfish to me. The argument that the recipient might just pass it on at a profit is, as Robert says, a 'dog in the manger' attitude and anyway, who are we to judge whether a film should remain in circulation or not. I understand that it is annoying to collectors when film stock turns pink or red, but it is still playable. I am absolutely certain that Graham cannot be guilty of any selfishness in his attitude, but my opinion is that this trashing of perfectly runnable film is at the least misguided and at worst sacrilegious.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 932
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 13, 2018 12:17 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark   Email Kevin Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The term sacrilegious is a bit strong Terry, these are inanimate rolls of celluloid not living beings or deities.

Not lost films, just a smaller guage facsimile of far superior masters (real film and digital) already safely stored away for future generations.

Kevin

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3520
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 12:49 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don`t want to seem too scroungey here, but my son is just set up with an 16mm Elmo cl, well shortly once the rollers are done.

( by a very kind collector on here ).

Any red prints that are nice and not warped etc would be great to borrow please. I`ll cover the posts.

Many Thanks Mark.

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4333
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2018 12:51 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham,

Nice job! I've just tossed a few Castle prints that suffered from the dreaded orange spot disease.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3714
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 13, 2018 12:55 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin

Thanks [Smile]

Folks... over the years of collecting films I have heard many times of people who were once interested into getting into this hobby, only to be disappointed when told "films are in good condition" only to find they are badly faded and unable to watch or show to there friends, so the result is, after feeling conned and lets face it, there have been by some crooks out there that profess to be films collectors but are only interested in making "MONEY" and as long as money is rolling in, dont give a hoot for the poor sucker they ripped off....they leave.

Sure not everyone is a crook, but if you want this hobby to have any future, then unless the print is "rare" as Kevin stated and worth keeping, then forget about the money... forget OH! someone might want it so give it away excuse...well that's rubbish, honestly folks, why would anyone want to watch a badly faded print of "Star Wars" [Eek!]

I dont take any pleasure dumping badly faded films but the bottom line is they are junk, and need to be taken out of circulation to avoid landing up on e-bay, getting sold for money to some poor sucker who has just joined this hobby.

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