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Author Topic: Digital Movie Theatres.
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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 - posted July 08, 2018 05:08 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been going to see quite a lot of movies lately that are presented in the Digital Format.

From what my son and i and others are perceiving the Digital movie image is looking more dare we say "filmic " .

I wonder what the reason for that is ? [Smile] [Smile] [Wink]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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 - posted July 08, 2018 09:51 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is it, perhaps, that you are getting more used to digital films and their projection?

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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 - posted July 08, 2018 10:04 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's all a matter of the software they are using: they can make it look any way they want as long as they don't run into the hardware's limits.

This is why early on it was kind of shortsighted to criticize the way digital cinema looked. Yes, it did look pretty bad, but like a lot of these new technologies what you see today will go obsolete pretty quickly and what comes next will be much better.

I bet the early days of film were much the same.

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Larry Arpin
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 - posted July 08, 2018 03:44 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the 35mm forum Matt Palmer who posted "I made a movie!: CALIBRE" said this after someone asked if he shot 35mm:

"Thanks for the new reviews!

For budget reasons, we shot on the Alexa. Then in the grade we added a heavy 16mm organic grain - a reel of 16mm is shot against a grey background, then the grey is taken away, leaving only a layer of actual film grain which can then be placed over the images - this process works very well and it's pretty damn difficult (if a film's been shot with decent lenses and graded well) to tell the difference between film and digital in the final movie. So when seen in theatres the movie looks very grainy and nicely filmic.

BUT, this grain had to be dialed down quite a bit for the online version (it would have failed quality control tests), so the grain is a lot less noticeable online, but still has a subtle effect I think (it makes the images feel heavier and dirtier).

If I get to make another movie and have a higher budget then I'd shoot on film for sure. That said, I'd probably still add the grain, which is kind of the equivalent of printing to film after you've shot on it."

First time I had heard them do this sort of thing using actual grain from film but it would seem they would continually be using the same grain over and over.



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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

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From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
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 - posted July 10, 2018 02:34 AM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ironically,what I remembered from REAL FILM projections are...
- the picture unsteadiness (always,even at a tiny bit of it)
- dust,dirt here&there
- and the picture ALWAYS flicker,48 Hz flashing rate seems too low to be unnoticeable for me.
And while digital projection have NONE of those "characteristics" (kindest word I can think of for now).

So is digital projection really that evil? Maybe yes for some,but definitely not for me. [Roll Eyes]

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted July 10, 2018 03:51 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The main trouble with 35mm was projectors that had shutters too narrow (or badly aligned) so that on credits you could see that the frame had not completely come to a rest before one part of it, usually the bottom, was blurred. This was only visible then due to the high contrast of white titles on black.

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Bill Brandenstein
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From: California
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 - posted July 10, 2018 04:03 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another factor is that the current generation of projectors is far and away much more accurate in reproducing a digital image. The color gamut available with laser projection (either RGB $$$$$$ type or even laser-phosphor versions), plus vastly improved brightness, are finally helping me miss film less.

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David Hardy
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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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 - posted July 11, 2018 06:37 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all your input on this topic folks.

Nantawat ... You are correct there on your points regarding film and in fact you have pointed out what i dislike about film and its weakness in general .

Bill ... Those have been my very thoughts regarding the improved digital images on screen. I have noticed that the colour has indeed changed and looks more like film without any "added grain".

Brian ... I have always disliked that " film ghosting " on out of alignment shutters on all gauges of film projectors.

I have always thought it to be an utter disgrace that such a state of affairs was allowed to occur on pro 35mm film projectors in cinemas.

Steve and Larry you mention some interesting points there guys.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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 - posted July 11, 2018 09:47 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always thought that most, if not all, 35mm projectors had a knob for shutter travel ghost adjustment. Such adjustment would as simple as using the racking knob.

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Maurice

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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 - posted July 11, 2018 10:57 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I was them, I'd use 35MM grain instead of 16MM.

I have this program "Serif" (a british software for video editing) and one of the effects is "old Film" and you can either "dial up" or down the amount of grain and it can, at times make some footage actually look better, I must confess.

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Oliver F. R. Feld
Master Film Handler

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 - posted July 11, 2018 02:45 PM      Profile for Oliver F. R. Feld     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember my STAR WARS and THE BLACK HOLE experience at the Royal Palast in Berlin in the 80s.
At this time it had the biggest screen in Europe.
Both were 70mm features and I can’t remember any unsteadiness.
It was breathtaking.
And I miss this special movies feeling today.

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Tom Photiou
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 - posted July 17, 2018 03:26 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i never noticed unsteadiness in the cinema, Where did you blokes to go watch films? Flea pits with old wrecks for projectors [Big Grin] [Wink]

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 17, 2018 04:44 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cant say I have ever noticed all those faults either [Roll Eyes] I usually go to a cinema to watch a film, not to say well its ghosting and there is a slight up and down movement on the intermittent, I am sure I saw a splice go through, oh! and there was a base scratch on the far right, Oh! and the sound was to quiet or loud, oh! and the film was boring and so on

Tom they must go to some run down dumps [Big Grin]

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

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From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
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 - posted July 17, 2018 09:54 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thrust me,I had seen all kinds of HELL in film projection in my (undeveloped) country. All varies from very perfect presentation in first-run movie palace,to open-air shows in rural area where all prints are scratched to death running through worn-out projector causing the picture to dance around the screen like crazy. [Roll Eyes]

The point is,digital projection would,at least make the presentation somewhat more consistent in terms of quality. It MIGHT NOT supersede the best film projection,but it DEFINITELY will,by far, leave the worst film projection in the dust.

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 17, 2018 10:21 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well my old "92" year old projector still looks pretty good to me. [Smile]

https://vimeo.com/226388386

Modern 35mm film projectors like the Kinoton were excellent machines, very quiet running, held a rock steady image and would have lasted many many years had film continued. I am glad I had the chance to watch such 35mm prints as "Doctor Zhivago" when we ran the stuff. Although its all history now, it was good while it lasted and in particular taking a bit of video history of our projection room before it closed.

https://vimeo.com/242964641

I don't go to the cinema much these days as the product does not really interest me, plus the digital projection although being very good I tend to stay home and watch it. Going to the cinema these days has sadly lost its appeal.

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Dave Groves
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From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
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 - posted July 18, 2018 07:08 AM      Profile for Dave Groves     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We're running a 1937 Simplex projector in our White Bus cinema and the picture is superb. Rock steady and bright since its long ago conversion from carbon arc. I often read of replies in the forums pointing to scratched, unsteady cinema presentations, often in the U.S.A. I've been to a lot of cinemas in the U.K. and can't recall anything of the sort, apart from a one night showing of Alien from the worst print in existence.

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Dave

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

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 - posted July 18, 2018 08:33 AM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Much as I love film, my most frequent complaint when watching 35mm projection in London was the frequency with which I was seeing less than perfect focussing, with (e.g.) only one side of the screen looking sharp.

A lot of good points here but one factor that hopefully makes the picture look more 'filmic', on some occasions, is the ongoing rise in the number of features being shot on film. The difference can of sometimes be subtle and won't be consciously perceived by most of the audience, but it was highly-visible when I watched the Italian film A CIAMBRA at a cinema last night. This was shot on Super 16mm and the image was superb - the format clearly offers a great option for directors who welcome a conspicuous 'fine grain' look.

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Adrian Winchester

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David Hardy
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 - posted July 18, 2018 05:29 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well blow me down with a feather and blast my buttons if there really is such a thing as a ROCK STEADY film image. [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 18, 2018 09:16 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I guess David you haven't watched my first video "yet" [Wink] [Smile]

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David Hardy
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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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 - posted July 19, 2018 02:51 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham i have watched your excellent video i can detect some image movement.

There is no such beastie as a "rock steady" image when it comes to film projection on any gauge.

There is always some very slight movement due to the mechanical nature of film projection no matter how good and pristine the projector may be.

Even though the best of machines are finely tuned to the "thresholds of unsteadiness" the mechanical imperfections still exist.

The threshold of unsteadiness below which it is not detected depends on the optical limitations of the human eye.

In all my years as a cinema projectionist i have never seen a rock steady image on the screen.

I have worked in my time with 35mm Super Simplex, Westars, Strong Century , Kinotons , Cinemaccanica V 7 and V 8 and of course that Rolls Royce of machines the Philips DP 70/35mm Todd-ao.

Never on any of them have i seen a "rock steady" image , as on very close inspection, right up to the screen, when viewed right up to the edge of the image to the black screen masking i used a white ruler to help detect any movement.

I have done this with both 35mm and 70mm and i have always found the slightest evidence of image movement. Its in the very nature of the beast.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

[ July 22, 2018, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: David Hardy ]

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted July 19, 2018 02:52 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you have to ask where the unsteadiness could come from. In a feature film there are many causes. The camera, effects works, printing, film stock perforation and finally the projector. Any one can introduce this. Unless there is a registration pin in the equipment there will be minor variation of the position of the film. This showed up when in an episode of Dr who they tried keying in a video effect over 16mm location work, unfortunately it made the rock steady video look as if it was wobbling.

Also your distance from the screen affects this. If you are very distant it looks steady, if you are very near you wouldn't be able to see a steady reference point to you brain would compensate - in between you might notice more.

Complex, isn't it?

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David Hardy
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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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 - posted July 19, 2018 02:57 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brian you are spot on there my friend. [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 20, 2018 04:09 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David

That movement you saw in the video, is me accidentally bumping the video camera [Wink] [Smile]

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David Hardy
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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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 - posted July 20, 2018 04:53 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham it may be the case that at one point you bumped the video camera but that does not change the fact that there is always some amount of small movement visible on all films. I can see it on the Tom and Jerry one.
[Smile]

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Kevin Clark
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From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
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 - posted July 20, 2018 05:33 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unless you bolt your head into a medical restraining cage and have your eyes permanently opened and again fixated to allow for no movement at all how on earth does such a small amount of (vertical) unsteadiness or (horizontal) side to side weave spoil a real film presentation?

Fade / poor focus / excessive wear - I can't put up with those, but the slightest movement being picked on here from a mechanical projection process is not a problem for me.

We are talking about moving images (real film and digital) watched by less than optically perfect human beings not analytical robots - surely the most important factor is enjoying the movie and being entertained by it?

Kevin

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