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Author Topic: Am I reading this wrong or is it me?
Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 26, 2019 04:32 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Trawling through fleabay this morning to look for a treat for myself, although this is not one i would buy anyway,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Viva-Knievel-1977-Scope- SP-Color-Uncut-Mylar/173756368962?hash=item2874afc842:g:oTAAAOSwoZJcMxRe

i couldn't help noticing the description states, very good condition", now unless ive got something wrong with my eyes, this one looks red with a hint of a few colours yet theirs nothing in the discretion about the colour fade.
I know its a bit obvious by the images but i'd normally put, the print itself is in good condition but the colour is fading?
Am i just being picky? [Wink]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5531
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted January 26, 2019 04:39 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's an SP print and has gone the way a lot of SP prints do. A light blue filter would improve the picture as there are certain colours present but without yellow.

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Maurice

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Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 621
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted January 26, 2019 04:50 AM      Profile for Melvin England   Email Melvin England   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For what it is worth, Tom, this would have passed my own "quality control" standards as it seems more like on the "warm" side as opposed to "red." Not a perfect copy but still got a lot of mileage left in it, I would say. And Maurice's suggestion of the filter I am sure would enhance it. There are much worse examples out there.

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"My name is for my friends!"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 26, 2019 10:26 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There certainly is. [Wink]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted January 26, 2019 10:41 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hey, at least the sellers honest enough to put up shots of the actual film. If he was wanting to rip the buyer off, he wouldn't put up any shots at all and just say 'perfect color'. [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 26, 2019 01:59 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Defiantly not suggesting the seller is attempting to rip anyone off, not at all, as you say, the images are there to see, i just didn't see fade or fading in the description, only good condition [Wink]

One thing i dont do is buy from sellers who do not have any screenshots or images of the film itself. Unless its a fellow collector i know and trust. [Wink]

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2857
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted January 26, 2019 07:41 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's an element of interpretation here, but I'd view the reference to SP colour as something of a warning, as I'd expect SP to show a degree of fade, even though it would hopefully look better than Eastman.

I can understand the point of view that fade is an element of a film's condition, although I personally equate condition to visible wear, so I wouldn't consider it unreasonable for a description to state that a film displaying fade is in excellent condition.

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Adrian Winchester

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Brian Stearns
Master Film Handler

Posts: 471
From: Lexington
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 26, 2019 09:19 PM      Profile for Brian Stearns   Email Brian Stearns   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is my auction by the way and I think people who have bought from me can vouch for me with past sales.

A film can be in excellent condition but have faded color. Thats what the auction is explaining excellent condition sp color mylar stock. I Was not referring to the color.Most collectors hold the view that condition of the film doesnt refer to color.A film can be called mint condition but have faded color. Since I put up screenshots there should not be an issue. people can see its fading without mentioning it. by the way where in the auction it says very good condition?

pictures can be misleading because only projected film you get how faded it will be? when I screened it the color was orange tone but it was still decent.Its an awesome film with good stunts. Never will become vinegar

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted January 27, 2019 02:56 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't accept that condition grades should not take into account colour fade and only be a measure of wear and tear - condition to me must be the overall consideration of all these things - sound quality / scratching / perf damage / splices and colour fade.

If anything the colour fade should be the very first criteria for a print to meet to gain a very good to excellent grading - the most basic requirement of film being a media to watch high quality moving pictures cannot be met if all it produces is a faded mess on screen.

Think of it this way - would you sell a painting and describe it as in excellent condition just because the frame and canvas had no scratches or tears, but the picture itself was faded with hardly any colour left due to years of direct sunlight damage to the paint pigments?

Would you list a classic car for sale as in excellent condition even if the paintwork (ie: colour) was oxidised to the point of showing colour fade on the bodywork and therefore needing a respray?

We do seem to let our romantic view of the special nature of celluloid film get in the way of the obvious truth sometimes.

Kevin.

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 03:46 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I bought a feature last year that was Eastman red, but described as Near Mint. I knew of course the seller was referring to the general condition of the film. He posted screenshots, so I knew what I was buying. On arrival, the film is as described, no scratches, splices, and all original leaders and tails.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 27, 2019 04:51 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good points from everyone on this, i do agree with Kevin that all aspects of a needs to have an explanation if there's any defects or fade etc.If anything, it protects the seller,which for all of is vital. There will always be someone who will say "you said the print was excellent but the colours faded, or theirs splices" etc. You know what some buyers are like [Wink]
Any listings i do from here on will now have a separate paragraph for print condition, sound and colour. While this may seem over the top, there will be no doubt form any potential buyers that i didn't list it.

Please remember, i'm not in any way picking fault or suggesting any dishonesty about the seller, merely looking at it as many potential sellers may. [Wink] Call it, constructive criticism [Big Grin] [Wink]

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Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 621
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted January 27, 2019 05:11 AM      Profile for Melvin England   Email Melvin England   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom - I have bought one or two films from you that you were selling on Ebay, and the descriptions you gave were more than adequate. Whilst I agree that each aspect does need a mention re condition, you of all people do not have anything to worry about.

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"My name is for my friends!"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 27, 2019 05:16 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Melvin. Thats good to know.
I think with ebay you can never over do the description, especialy in order to protect yourself. [Wink]

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 06:45 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How many sellers mention an emulsion scratch?; you don't know about this until you view the film. Grading isn't reliable as it changes from one seller to another. I have bought films described as Good, or Very Good, that another would describe as Excellent. The term Very Good can cover a multitude of faults.

A film described as complete with titles and end can have the Columbia, MGM, Warner's, etc, intro missing. It's all a game of chance.

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Brian Stearns
Master Film Handler

Posts: 471
From: Lexington
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 06:51 AM      Profile for Brian Stearns   Email Brian Stearns   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cars and paintings are diffrent establish grading standards then apply to film. A sun faded baseball card would not be graded mint even though it it's has Sharp corners and no scratches. My point is its the standard film collectors describe things. Condition referring to wear of film not color. I used to thinks that they were equal but when I questioned it I was schooled by long time collectors. I just accept it even though it didn't make sense coming From collecting other things.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4712
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 27, 2019 07:06 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem these days is with so many faded or fading prints around now its becoming an important issue for buyers.
I fully accept that many collectors are happy with a certain degree of fade,even red prints but i no longer am now.
By the way, as already said, i was only picking up that the condition is very good but no mention of the colour, the images do show it tho. I can fully see where Kevin is coming from on the comparisons. Different things but the rules still apply [Wink]

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 07:55 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm fortunate in that I don't have a problem with faded prints. If you dismiss a film because it's fading, how many years do you have to wait before another comes along, and that may be faded as well. I am more interested in getting films in the best physical condition than worrying about fade.

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Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 621
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted January 27, 2019 08:53 AM      Profile for Melvin England   Email Melvin England   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think this discussion clearly demonstrates that the description of a film is not an exact science. What is "excellent" for one is "good" for another. Faded red is an absolute "No No" for many and a "so what?" for others.

I find that, generally, descriptions on Ebay are pretty accurate. However, that is probably because the films I bid for have passed all the conditions on my "check" list.

First - Are they regular sellers* and/or are they known people from this forum? If so, that is a green light so far. Have I bought from this person before? What was my experience? Was the description accurate?......Is the asking price sensible?

Secondly - If they are not regulars, do they sound as if they are trying to be as helpful as possible? I believe a lot can be gained by judging the way the description is written and worded. Sometimes, people can come over as very guarded or potentially hostile.

Thirdly - Screenshots. Personally, I am not as fussy for pictures for 200' or less. 400' to features should be presented as much as possible. I think we can all judge by screenshots, regardless of whether they are taken with a mobile or a low quality still camera, if the film is just fading..... or is beetroot.....or scratched to hell. The sound description, though, can only be taken on trust.

Finally - Certain words or phrases that, to me, scream "avoid" or at worst "Enter at own risk." Phrases like "untested" or "sold as seen" ring the alarm bells, as does hardly any description at all. Sometimes I may take a chance on "found in my grandad's house" or, as mentioned above, an obvious non film person trying their very best to give as much info as they see fit.

Just as a last comment, another thing I have noticed with films is that if the box or container is worn out, you can bet your life that the print inside it isn't too good either. Funny, really, given this consistency in a random situation!


* not always a guarantee of good service.

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"My name is for my friends!"

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 09:23 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with everything you have said Melvin, with the exception of if the dealer is a member of this forum, then that is a green light so far. In December I sold an old B&H projector and the buyer collected it, and asked me if I knew someone who is a respected member of this forum. They had bought three features at Rickmansworth, and were not happy with any of them. One in particular was a composite B&W film that kept changing contrast, and had many bad tape splices: when they tried to remove the tape it pulled the emulsion off. I think they paid £50 for this.

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1378
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted January 27, 2019 11:10 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's all very subjective concerning film and projector descriptions, but a good seller would always address any realistic issues that a buyer had to avoid negative feedback. I've always done so even for some 'unrealistic' claims.

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1189
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted January 27, 2019 12:21 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I see the James Bond feature ending today on eBay made me laugh,it's pictures are taken using a filter saying so you can see how good the colour is using them,surely you would want to see the actual film in it's original state,or at least one of each,bidding is going up so I hope the buyer will be happy,all sorts of tricks are used and vague descriptions,Brian's listing seems pretty spot on compared to this,Mark

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted January 27, 2019 01:16 PM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a good point you make there Mark. The film should be shown in it's natural state. The buyer may not own any filters.

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1618
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted January 27, 2019 03:12 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Or at best shots with and without filters so you can judge if the filtration is worthwhile.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3083
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted January 28, 2019 04:25 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Traditionally, condition has nothing at all to do with whether or not there is colour fade. However, the colour should be described accurately in a listing alongside the condition of the print.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5409
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2019 05:14 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As far as I knew a long time ago Derann always graded the physical condition not the color fading status. Do not ask for screen shots, they wouldn't bother giving them.

...everyone seemed to be ok at that time.

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Winbert

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