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» 8mm Forum   » General Yak   » Crash course for recording with an ELMO GS1200?

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Author Topic: Crash course for recording with an ELMO GS1200?
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10091
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 13, 2019 12:04 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello ...

Would someone be willing to give me a "Recording for Dummies" version of recording with a ELMO GS1200? I am going to try a stereo record of "Empire Strikes Back". I have it on 4x800ft reels and what i am going to do ahead of time is make the stereo audio in exact clips for what is on each 800ft reel, if possible, down to the very frame, (as i can, with my audacity program, cut the audio to that exact of a point) ...

So, I need to know what to do with the actual recording process.

(Before anybody asks, no, i do not have the original manual)

I'm not sure, but would i be able to do a "sync pulse" recording by doing it this way?

I thank one and all ahead of time!

OSI

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1619
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 13, 2019 01:37 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, my biggest concern with this type of re-recording is introducing "wow" and other imperfections into the soundtrack.

I have had so called pros (advertising in Derann's Film For The Collector) re-record stereo tracks using a GS-1200 and sure, it was in sync, but the "wow" was just awful.

For example, "T2" - took it back to Derann for them to put the original track back on after spending good money on an advertising amateur who used a buzzy VHS to put a "wowy" stereo track on it. He also did recordings for some other releases...

I have also had real professionals like John Clancy re-record my copy of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", and whilst it all turned out well, John had to spend a LOT of time to ensure that "wow" was minimal, despite first passes being in sync. John put a lot of work into this to get good results, and he is a real pro with this kind of thing, but it took a lot of work to get not only sync, but quality recordings. I spent a day with John doing this work and it is not a task to be undertaken lightly...and he knew what he was doing.

I'd say be careful...stereo great...but don't ruin a perfectly decent mono track...

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2019 02:02 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, the instruction manual is on this site (in the "manuals section).

--------------------
Dominique

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 13, 2019 02:03 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John also re-recorded an English soundtrack onto my 400ft version of Young Frankenstein. What a great job he did too. It took most of an evening to do it and that was a 400ft version. So i can certainly back up how long that raiders must have took [Wink]

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Graham Ritchie
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From: New Zealand
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 - posted March 13, 2019 02:24 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi

Also remember that unless the GS1200 has had the capacitor replaced, as mentioned here in previous threads, you stand a good chance it wont record very well.

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1214
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 13, 2019 02:47 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do a test recording on an old film and that will give you an indication of the machines sound ability.

Good point by Graham too about the recording capacitors as they can give up at any point if they are old.

Do you have a sync unit? Mark

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Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Stuart Hilliker
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: London
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted March 13, 2019 05:21 PM      Profile for Stuart Hilliker   Email Stuart Hilliker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi, do you have an audio interface for your computer with three outputs? If so, there is a very reliable solution to any synchronisation issues. Happy to help if needed.
Totally agree that a healthy record capacitor is key to a successful result.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1627
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted March 13, 2019 06:07 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Add to this, if you can create a computer session to do the re-record via pulse sync, then you can just use the computer audio live with projection and not wipe the original track.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 14, 2019 03:44 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not to confuse you Osi but my best recordings have come either from a Eumig Stereo 900 range machine or the Elmo GS800 Stereo. Both models feature a soft touch quick dubbing button for spot dubbing. For me I found the GS1200 a bit to heavy going if dubbing say a 400ft where many cuts are made during the process. A bit off topic but the 400 of Star Wars makes a excellent stereo training project on the art of spot dubbing. Probably done 30 or so for fans of it.

If you are doing features you'll not be worried about a great deal of sound editing although if doing say Raise the Titanic you will as the digital sound does not neatly match the feature due to cuts in the 35mm original.

My only real tip to you Osi would be never to start with reel one. Pick a mid reel and complete that first to your satisfaction. I always leave reel 1 till last as you will have a run of titles with no cuts to follow.

All my super 8 dubbing over the last 40+ years or so has been done wild with a firm finger on the speed trim control.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 14, 2019 07:52 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IMO the Eumig 900's are better than the Elmo GS1200 for recording work. As a matter of fact I don't know how anyone ever used the GS1200 for serious sound editing where you have to constantly stop and start the machine - why? Because the GS1200 takes at least a couple of seconds to stabilize its speed after starting film movement, and that's even with the powered up flywheel inside the machine. The Eumig 900's, and indeed all Eumig's, are instant starters, up to full speed in a fraction of a second. So I do all my recordings on a Eumig 926 or 938 Stereo and just use the GS1200'S for playback. And, like Lee, I use the wild sync method, which is time consuming but can give excellent results with a projector that has a precision manual speed control like the Eumig 900's.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Phil Murat
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Posts: 643
From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted March 14, 2019 09:33 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Osi,

According to Paul's comment, don't forget to advance film to record in GS1200 for approx 10 frames (to absorb stabilisation and accel inertia plus a systematic 3 pulses lag approx ,this is to avoid an uncontrol GS1200 start in ESS mode)........

I suggest you to use an ESS shielded Cable as short as possible (shielded to prevent from external signals as cell phones , Wifi, etc....)

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10091
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 14, 2019 11:20 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm totally confused, as i don't understand the whole concept of "Sync-pulse" Could someone actually explain it to me?

I might do better just "winging it" and hoping for the best.

I will download the manual if i can.

Could someone put up a link to the actual manual? I went to what i thought was the manual section, but it wasn't.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Browning
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Posts: 999
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 14, 2019 12:36 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sync pulse, incoming pulses blips clicks from your source, lets just say dvd. These are fed into the gs via the ess socket. When switched on this is picked up by the comparator circuit in the gs. The gs has a small magnet on the shaft that rotates ( the two blade shutter or three blade shutter is attached to this)
.This passes over a reed switch which opens and closes making a pulse or blip click, this is also picked up by the sync pulse circuit and makes a comparison of both incoming, it then adjusts the projector speed to match the incoming pulses so that they "sync up " and stay that way. You can create this pulse with audacity, and the gs will pic it up. You will need an external sound card to do this correctly, and least 3 channels as mentioned previously.

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Leon Norris
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 874
From: Elkins Park, PA, USA
Registered: Jun 2012


 - posted March 14, 2019 02:12 PM      Profile for Leon Norris   Email Leon Norris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Always Remember! When Recording with the GS1200! Make sure the flywheel spring is at its full pressure strength! To do that take off flywheel spring and bend it! Put back on using two washers and lock clip! Or use a NEW spring! I did a few recordings with my own GS with no problems! If you have to stop and start use the still button! Make sure the flywheel has the proper spring pressure! That way you will not get that Drag at the start and stop!

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Stuart Hilliker
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: London
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted March 14, 2019 05:21 PM      Profile for Stuart Hilliker   Email Stuart Hilliker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, I would highly recommend that you persevere with getting pulse sync to work with your GS. I made a cable that allows me to play a 24 Hz or 25 Hz signal, dependent on frame rate of audio source (I believe you can generate these using Audacity) into the ESS socket. As a result, I can capture a sync locked video of a print, edit audio to match the rough telecine and then re-record this track back to the GS. This guarantees frame accurate sync and offers the ability to adjust for any missing frames. If your leaders are long enough and you have a reference frame to start the projector from, it works perfectly....as long as your record capacitor is ok!

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 19, 2019 04:00 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nice to read all the above [Smile]
Only thing is it reminds me how far we have come in 50 years.
Back in early 70's my own exploits at synchronising a Eumig projector to a cassette recorder were eagerly reported in a film magazine. This amounted to starting them at the same point then having set the motor trimmer within the cassette recorder very slightly faster putting my youthful finger on the tapes feed tape to effectively slow it down when needed. I submitted my finding to the magazine then took up the offer to demo it to the journalist. He couldn't believe it worked! Happy memories.

Sorry Osi back to you hope the DVD arrived safe from over this side of the pond.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10091
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 19, 2019 12:13 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It hasn't arrived yet, Lee, probably just held up for the moment in customs.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1619
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 19, 2019 02:22 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All of these are really good points, but I go back to the fact that frame accurate sync doesn't mean "wow" free recordings.

Paul makes a very good point that the Elmo range isn't actually the best in design at producing "wow" free playback or recordings.

I have re-recorded tracks using a Goko editor which provides stable, "wow" free recordings.

But this is a "wild" method and to say it is time consuming is truly an understatement.

I have spent many hours getting a 2 or 3 minute trailer to start in sync and stay in sync.

The idea of adjusting any speed during recording fills me with dread. You'll get "wow".

That said I have total admiration for pioneers such as Lee, the likes of whom taught us all the way forward.

The best I ever achieved was a 600ft extract with much stopping and re-setting, plus careful mixing in of the new recordings.

BUT show an audience your proud "in-sync" Empire with "wowy" music and watch 'em cringe...

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 976
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted March 26, 2019 03:57 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
GS 1200 do not wow. They do only if the pinch roller arm is not pushing strong enough and/or there is too much lube on the film. It happened to me but just once.

Using a properly tuned machine and a sync pulse quartz lock system ensure you get 100% wow & flutter-free recording. ANd if the bias capacitor is OK, the higher frequnecy range is spectacular: treble sound will be well detailed but with no distortion whatsoever. And no "sound flicker" from the claw, thanks to the extra rubber roller placed before the sound assembly. Believe me, if you sue a perfect machine, you will never downgrade to more simple models. And this is also due to the resilience of its heads which lets you work on this model with the confidence they will hardly wear out in decades.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Leon Norris
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 874
From: Elkins Park, PA, USA
Registered: Jun 2012


 - posted March 27, 2019 07:05 AM      Profile for Leon Norris   Email Leon Norris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That rubber roller does make a difference!

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Stuart Hilliker
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: London
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted March 27, 2019 06:17 PM      Profile for Stuart Hilliker   Email Stuart Hilliker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hardly a cinematic masterpiece but here’s a quick demo of one of my GS1200’s recording capabilities after a capacitor change.
https://we.tl/t-n69nDQNuO7?src=dnl

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