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Author Topic: UPDATED Vinegar smell on 9.5mm films?
Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted March 13, 2015 03:25 AM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, I have 3 x 9.5mm 800ft films that I have noticed that they smell - like a vinegar smell, I guess this is the smell of the "vinegar syndrome" I've read about - so far none of my 8mm or 16mm have it - touch wood [Smile]

Could it be something else?
For some reason I am surprised by the smell of the 9.5mm films!

Maybe I need to throw them away?

Any thoughts members?

Cheers,
Clinton.

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Edwin van Eck
Master Film Handler

Posts: 312
From: Tilburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted March 13, 2015 12:18 PM      Profile for Edwin van Eck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You don't need to throw these films aways.
But make sure that other films don't get contaminated with this.

This is what we recommend to treat films who have the vinegar syndrome:

Kodak Molecular Sieve
http://shop.van-eck.net/SF-0260-30.html?_globalsearch=vinegar

Place these in the film box and make sure the film container is closed air-free.

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Edwin van Eck
Van Eck Video Services

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 13, 2015 01:48 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does that product erease the smell ?

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Dominique

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Edwin van Eck
Master Film Handler

Posts: 312
From: Tilburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted March 13, 2015 02:12 PM      Profile for Edwin van Eck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The smell remains. The Kodak Molecular Sieves slow down the detoriation process, but do not stop it.

Best is to put the acid films in venitlated cans with the molecular sieves in it, in a well ventilated area specially for acid films. But many people don't have this facility, so the 2nd best option is to isolate these acid films.

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Edwin van Eck
Van Eck Video Services

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 15, 2015 12:28 PM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would be very surprised if the films are suffering from "vinegar syndrome" because they were printed on Acetate stock not Triacetate. Are you sure it is not just the smell of acetate, similar to the smell of film cement , that you have noticed. Ken Finch.

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted March 17, 2015 08:25 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ken,
Yes I was surprised aswell with the "vinegar syndrome" thought!
When I open the can that contains the 3 reels it has a really strong smell and when giving it a sniff its really strong.
I think I will clean them using Filmguard and see what happens [Confused]
I will keep you posted [Smile]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted March 18, 2015 05:37 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've had another look at my 9.5mm film prints.....with the ones that have an odour the film feels "soft" for want of a word...not brittle.

And they are compilations of 60ft - 200ft titles on a 800ft reel.
If I decide to throw them away I am going to check if each title smells.

And will the empty reels be o.k. to use after I have removed the films?

Thanks,
Clinton [Smile]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 18, 2015 06:59 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Filmguard can be a good test : the VS smell remains, the other smell should vanish.

--------------------
Dominique

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted March 29, 2015 09:02 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Dominique, I have cleaned the three reels with Filmguard then will put them out in the fresh air and check for a smell in a few days....here's hoping!
I did notice that film on one of the reels was bendy or warped (not flat) so that maybe a clue?

To be continued....... [Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 30, 2015 11:08 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Clinton
As previously commented by Ken, are you sure it's a vinegar smell?
I have around 200 films on 9.5 and none have that odour, true, some do have a smell to them but it's more an "old" smell, not easy really to describe. But it's not objectionable, more a smell of yesteryear.

--------------------
Maurice

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 30, 2015 12:10 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it is a vs smell, it should remain after a Filmguard application, you don't need to wait several days to know.

--------------------
Dominique

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted March 30, 2015 03:59 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys for your thoughts.....the next day after using Filmguard I can say I am fairly sure they are o.k. The smell is almost gone unless I give them a good sniff.
The "what is that smell" reaction is gone [Smile]
I think I will keep the 3 reels together for a while and monitor them [Smile]

I am always learning things about films - I collect standard 8mm / super 8mm / 16mm and of course 9.5mm - and that smell was a first for me [Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 30, 2015 04:19 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I had several doubts myself about some films until I came across a real vs smell. It really smells like vinagar and then you have no doubt at all.

--------------------
Dominique

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted May 18, 2015 07:03 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's been a few months since I first looked at these films and I now can say that there is something wrong with some of them,warped film with focus coming and going and on one film the left of film was unfocused.And the smell is still strong too.

On 3 of the 600ft various reels I have kept some of the shorts and cutout the smelly/damaged ones.

Whether they have VS or some sort of chemical problem makes them unwatchable and sadly it's the bin for them!

And that's my update and findings....

Cheers,
Clinton [Smile]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted May 19, 2015 03:50 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Never had a 9-5 go VS in my own 40 years collecting it pleased to report. [Cool]

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted May 25, 2015 05:02 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I am still mystified about having VS on some of my 9.5mm films.
I found this on the web link

http://www.scart.be/?q=en/content/short-guide-identify-nitrate-films-and-vinegar-syndrome-degradation-audio-visual-collections

Visual - traces of deterioration

Films subject to vinegar syndrome often display a series of visually identifiable symptoms:
1.they curl and curve (they won't stay flat anymore) - ALL OF THEM
2.they lose flexibility (the winding is not as tight or not at all tight anymore) - ALL OF THEM
3.they show signs of cracking and buckling on the emulsion surface - THIS ONE SHOWED ON 2 OF THE FILMS FOR ME.

All theses 3 symptoms showed on the films I threw away.

I've posted this as an interest to everyone - it's like the T.V. program I used to watch called "Believe it or not?"

Cheers,Clinton. [Smile] [Confused]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted May 26, 2015 05:41 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most old 9.5mm films go the way as described, BUT, this does not necessarily mean they have vinegar syndrome.
The main clue is do they SMELL of vinegar?

--------------------
Maurice

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted January 09, 2017 04:41 AM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK ... it's been a year and a half since I posted this thread on possible VS on a few of my 9.5mm films.
I've opened the can that had the smell and the smell is just as strong and on another reel the middle film out of 3 on a 600ft reel has warped very badly that it is buckled in the centre and therefore the perforations don't engage with the claws on my projector.I've had to throw this section away.
I think just to be sure that the other reel that smells strongly I will also throw away.
The effected films are what I was given and they were in metal cans for 35mmm films,is this a possible cause?

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted January 10, 2017 12:41 PM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Clinton
It is a possibility if the 35mm films that were stored in the cans were suffering VS. It is the vapours/fumes from infected film that infect other film stored nearby, so unless the cans were cleaned and sterilised this could happen.

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010


 - posted January 10, 2017 05:16 PM      Profile for Clinton Hunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that's what has happen as the only effected films were in the 35mm cans.

[ January 12, 2017, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Clinton Hunt ]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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