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Author Topic: Pathe 200-B dual guage problem
Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 04, 2017 05:45 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got an old Pathe 200-B out of the loft to have a fiddle, I bought this decades ago and not really used it but I recently got a pile of films from a car boot sale and wanted to see what they were.

There is a loose removable part for the dual guage in the gate with 9.5 on one side and 16 on the other but I can't see how it's supposed to stay in place with the square aperture in alignment as when I lift the gate lever to open it this part drops down so it's a constant fiddle to get it right. The handbook with the projector makes no mention of dual guage fittings either.

Any advice please before it ends up back in the loft!

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5610
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 04, 2017 06:31 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vic
I don't know the dual gauge 200B but have just been looking at Martyn Stevens' web-site.
In his comments about this model he says:-
"The different masking for 9.5 and 16 is effected by a lever above the gate".
http://www.cinerdistan.com/9-5/2-uncategorised/465-pathe-200b-2

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 04, 2017 08:56 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Maurice, the lever that slides the aperture to two different sizes works o.k but it's the other part that I have a problem with, here is a pic of the part which has no means of holding it in the gate properly, without it the film is not held properly

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[ October 04, 2017, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Vic Newey ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 04, 2017 10:31 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vic

As I said, I don't know the dual-gauge model, but I have just looked at my single gauge 9.5mm model.

Referring to mine:-
1) The front part of the gate (nearest the lens) is secured by screws.
2) The rear part of the gate (nearest the lamp) hinges backwards to insert a film, there is a slot to hold the finger tab in position to keep the gate open whilst threading. In operating mode the rear gate is held against the front gate by a spring.

You say you bought it decades ago and have not really used it. Is it possible that something is missing which has never been obvious if it has not been used since your purchase?

I am sorry that I have not been more helpful.

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 04, 2017 11:39 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You were kind enough to reply Maurice so thank you,
Mine will be very similar and the rear part of the gate hinges open and onto a hook the same as yours and as you are aware this is spring loaded to apply gentle pressure to keep the film tight as it goes past the claws. When unlatched mine doesn't close the gap far enough to apply pressure because it needs the part in the photo which is supposed to fit in place for the correct gap, 9.5 or turned over 16mm. There is no means to keep it permanently in place.

here is a photo looking down on the gate which is in the closed position, you can see that the pressure pad does not reach to gently hold the film, you can also see two different film widths and it is there that the separate part is supposed to go to complete the correct spacing of the gate as far as I can tell, I need someone with the dual guage version to see where I'm going wrong or if another part is missing etc.

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[ October 05, 2017, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Vic Newey ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted October 04, 2017 02:22 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vic
I have just spoken to Martyn Stevens about your problem and he will be taking photographs of his dual gauge 200B.
I may be wrong, but it is possible that something is missing, a pin which secures the part in question.
I hope, when the photos are ready, that Martyn will himself put them on here together with details.
Watch this space!

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Maurice

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Martyn Stevens
Film Handler

Posts: 36
From: Leighton Buzzard, UK
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted October 04, 2017 02:28 PM      Profile for Martyn Stevens   Author's Homepage   Email Martyn Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a dual-gauge 200B in front of me. The gate comprises 3 parts, a fixed front plate, a sprung back plate and a central leaf that can be fixed to either of the others by a long pin that passes down through the holes in the lugs on the edge of each of the 3 parts. One way = 9.5, the other 16. Can send pix if needed except I dunno how to do it in this forum
Martyn Stevens

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted October 04, 2017 02:55 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, Martyn.
Vic. May I suggest that you send a PM to Martyn giving him your email address so that he can send the photos direct to you.

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Maurice

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Martyn Stevens
Film Handler

Posts: 36
From: Leighton Buzzard, UK
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted October 04, 2017 03:26 PM      Profile for Martyn Stevens   Author's Homepage   Email Martyn Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In fact, I am wondering if this is a 200B Plus at all. Certainly that loose gate is not correct - looks more like it's from a Bolex DA. I will try to upload a pic or two -There is another on my website at http://www.cinerdistan.com/9-5/2-uncategorised/465-pathe-200b-2.
The vertical lever above the gate controls two separate film masks, one 16, one 9.5. The one on Vic's machine looks different - is it just a framing lever?
All terribly difficult to deal with all this in words - I'll be happy to help if you get in touch, Vic.
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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1389
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted October 04, 2017 04:24 PM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Martyn
That photo does not look like my 200B Plus. As well as being a dual 9.5 and 16mm projector the Plus model also has a chrome lever on the shutter assembly which facilitates a heat screen to prevent burning the film while showing still frames. As you say the change over on the gate does not involve changing the gate. they are combined and the change over simply involves moving one gate onto the other and it is kept in situ by a steel pin which is placed into locating holes built into the gates.
If it is any help I can scan pictures of the Handbook, or photocopy it maybe.

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 04, 2017 04:25 PM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for the photo Martyn, I'm wondering if mine has a part missing, now you mention a vertical pin I think I see where it would be inserted and visible on my photo,I wondered what that loop was for! presumably the part in my first photo is someones botched attempt after the original one was lost. Whether this is a proper dual guage I don't know, the 3 rollers which are fitted show they will take two sizes of film and the sprockets have knurled knobs for removal so maybe it is ?

As suggested I'm sending you a PM Martyn

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 05, 2017 03:47 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Th mystery deepens! here is a side view showing the gate etc, you can see the 9.5mm claws behind the 16mm claws which are pointing downwards, how they are swapped around to use 16mm I can't fathom out, the very thin lever (not very visible at this angle) is the one that slides framing adjustment for the two film sizes

Does this mechanism look as though it's been adapted from something else ?

EDIT: I've added another photo from a different angle, you can see the rollers are made for the two film sizes.

Terry Sills, can you scan me a page that shows how it's supposed to work in the gate area please,

I'm more convinced now this is a home made adaption; particularly when I read on that link that Maurice provided that 'private' conversions were marketed by Cinesmith Products of Barnsley who presumably posted the new parts to be fitted by the user [Eek!]

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[ October 06, 2017, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Vic Newey ]

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 528
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted October 05, 2017 11:41 AM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Vic. As one who is very familiar with the 200B Plus it does appear that the one you have is a model which may be a Cinesmith conversion. The clue is the 16mm claws. The Pathescope dual gauge version has a single claw pin each side of the claw arm thus engaging the sprocket holes on both sides of the 16mm film. It was of course intended to run 16mm silent film which had sprocket holes on both sides of the film. It also appears from your photos that the long pin holding the gate in position is missing. Do you have the 16mm sprockets? These also have to be changed when changing gauges as well as uncrossing the spring belts when running 16mm. You cannot of course run 16mm sound prints through this machine as the claws and sprockets would punch holes and damage the sound track! Hope this helps. Ken Finch.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5610
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 05, 2017 02:58 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken has made a very valid point.
Cinesmith Products of Barnsley in Yorkshire also used to offer dual-gauge conversions for Specto projectors.
They, like, many others, also jumped on the bandwagon of converting silent projectors to sound.

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 06, 2017 03:30 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 16mm sprockets were not with the projector, I got it very cheap at a car boot sometime in the 80's but looking at it's general condition and the problem with the gate and it missing parts I think it's not worth the hastle to get it going. I already have a Pathe H which I bought in 1961 but it's lamp has burnt out although I could probably attempt a conversion or see if the lamp from the 200-B will fit

Thanks for your help everyone,

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5610
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 06, 2017 03:59 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vic

The 200B uses a 110volt, 200watt, lamp.
The H uses an 80volt, 100watt, lamp.

In Gerald McKee's excellent book "The Home Cinema-Classic Home Movie Projectors 1922-1940". Gerald suggests the lamp conversion for an H:-

"With the spacious lamp house it is a simple matter to fit a T.H. lamp holder, and there is sufficient room in the base to fit a transformer"

He also says about using a 24volt, 150watt, transformer. Perhaps using the A1/231 (EFP) 12volt, 100watt lamp might be more suitable.

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 08, 2017 12:19 PM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've just found the Pathe H in the loft, it needs a good going over before running a film but strangely the bulb worked after I jiggled it about a bit. I noted on Ebay that some of these have a separate transformer but this one doesn't so presumably a later model?

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5610
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 08, 2017 02:00 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe there was only the one model as I indicated above. Its transformer was in the base.
Why not examine the lamp and see if there are any markings on it to indicate wattage and voltage. Did you look in the base?
It is possible that the H has been modified with a mains voltage lamp. My Specto now uses a mains voltage lamp.

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 09, 2017 08:01 AM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The bulb is 80v 100W type 6130C Maurice it looks like it may have been modified to fit as there is a locating lug that appears to have been soldered on by someone, the lower part of the bulb has A1/79 on it

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5610
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 09, 2017 10:14 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vic

Here is a pic of the original lamp for the H projector. The catalogue describes its base as having a small "T" cap, number TYP.6130C. So your lamp may be an original.

https://ian-partridge.com/pictures/l6130c.jpg

As the lamp runs at 80 volts there is obviously a transformer in the base. There should be a range of voltage selections beside the speed control knob.

Obviously the original lamps are no longer available. Therefore, while the lamp continues to work things are OK, but you may have to consider some modern lamp conversion in the future.

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Maurice

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Vic Newey
Film Handler

Posts: 41
From: Worcestershire, England
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted October 09, 2017 01:49 PM      Profile for Vic Newey   Author's Homepage   Email Vic Newey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's the same as mine Maurice, if it blows then I'll seek alternatives, I spent hours in the late fifties & early sixties going round junk shops buying films etc so I have a fair number untouched for decades + those I got recently of which some appear to be about WW2 and some are labelled Liecester so maybe home movies.

One film I just rediscovered is a 2 reel sound film called 'Cinnamon' I remember running it 50 years ago and seeing the soundstripe down the side but of course had no idea what they were saying. The film is a western which starts off with a long line of wagons & horses racing off to stake claims as they did back then, imagine my shock when I realised all the actors were Chimpanzees ! How common is this film I wonder

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