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Author Topic: Is it possible to put sound onto film now that Kodak has discontinued sound film?
Jacob Jones
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From: Wales, UK
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 - posted July 20, 2013 12:27 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know that this: http://www.super8sync.com/ site exists but this seems pretty complex.

I did do some reading up on the Internet and some people record with tape recorders wild and I think they use some kind of microphone or something on the magnetic stripping to put it in sync with the film.

Is this how people do it or am I wrong?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 20, 2013 12:46 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can ask a lab to add a sound strip on your film and reccord on it via a sound projector which allows you to do so with a microphone or another source. Kodak has indeed discontinued the sound cartridges for sound cameras, so people who shout have to record the sound separately. I don't know if you were talking about shooting in super 8 or only about projecting. If it can help you, it is still possible to buy super 8 sound cartridges in black and white from a British company (sorry but I don't remember the name). As they explain on their site, this is not new stock film but outdated Kodak sound cartridges that they process to get a reversal film (that you can project). Of course it is not cheap but can be usefull for someone who needs (or likes) to shoot anything that needs a perfect syncronisation (like someone talking).

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Dominique

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 20, 2013 12:58 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, talking about actual shooting this time [Razz] . I own a Super 8 camera running at 18FPS. Is it true that if I shoot in 18FPS and project at 18FPS and then record sound onto the strip whilst running at 18FPS that the sounds will synchronise accurately?

What happens if you record onto the sound strip and you make a mistake? No going back and fixing it?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 20, 2013 01:17 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The speed concerns the picture. If you shoot at 18 frams per second and project at the same speed, the movment on the screen will appear normal. The same if you shoot at 24 frames per second and project at the same speed. There are two different speeds because the silent films were shoot at 18 frames per seconds (16 earlier in other gauges). When the sound came, the speed of 24 frames per second was adopted for commercial releases. That's why you have two speeds on sound projectors. Many super 8 filmakers shoot their film sound at 18 frames per second to save film stock. Theorically, the sound is better at 24 frames per second because the faster the tape runs the best the sound is. But with progress made in the seventies, the difference is not so clear. Of course if you make a fault when you record via your projector, you can erase the sound and record again as the sound is on a tape. Hope I was clear enough as English is a foreign language for me.

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Dominique

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 20, 2013 01:26 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your English is very good.

I suppose the tape is just magnetic tape like you find in cassettes?

Are there any labs in the UK that put on magnetic strip?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 20, 2013 01:38 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks [Smile] It is the same kind of tape. I think that several labs strip films in the UK. As I am not using my computer I cannot copy/paste but I think it will be easy to use. And probably some British members will be able to advise you labs they know.

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Dominique

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 20, 2013 01:39 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your help.

I'll search for some film labs later.

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 20, 2013 01:41 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You're welcome. I hope other members will add more informations.

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Dominique

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Winbert Hutahaean
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 - posted July 20, 2013 05:17 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
EVT that is the name of British company who is doing sound striping using paste stripe, not magnetic tape, but will do the same.

Search in this forum using EVT as the keyword and you will find a bunch of info regarding it

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Winbert

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Mike Peckham
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From: West Sussex, UK.
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 - posted July 20, 2013 10:32 AM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,I don't think EVT are operating anymore. I might be wrong but I think I read that somewhere on this forum.

Jacob, its great to hear that you are embarking on Filming in Super 8 with direct sound. When I was filming in super 8 on a regular basis, I used an Elmo 110R camera with the matching Elmo D1 tape recorder.

It's a clever system whereby the camera and the tape recorder are linked and the tape recorder acts as a slave to the camera. When you press the shutter button on the camera there is a moment's delay and then both the camera and the tape recorder start in unison. The tape recorder then records the sound on to one track and a pulse on the other. The pulse corresponds to the shutter movement on the camera so when you play the film back through the appropriate projector (usually an Elm GS 1200) the projector acts as a slave to the tape recorder and if everything is set up properly you can maintain lip sinc throughout.

You can stripe the film and lay a sound track down on to it, you can even edit the film but you will need to follow a particular sequence in order to maintain lip sinc. Its fiddly but mighty satisfying!

I haven't done it for some time but still have the equipment. I think it's quite rare to find it in the UK though, the Elmo system was more popular in Germany and of course Japan where it was developed.

Good luck!

Mike [Cool]

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 20, 2013 12:23 PM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That sounds really interesting.

I was actually planning to use a minidisc recorder with a shotgun mic to record my sound, then after filming would have finished I would have got my film processed, got it back and sent it to another film lab to get the strip on -- I would have then have used my projector with a mic and played the sound on my minidisc close to the mic so that the voices would have been in sync with the film.

I was going to use a clapperboard to initiate when to start syncing the film and when shooting begun.

Speaking of that, any projectors that you would suggest that is between £30-£100 that plays Super 8 sound films and also allows filmmakers to record sound onto strips?

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Sven Zijlemaker
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From: Noord-Holland, Nederland
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 - posted July 21, 2013 02:30 AM      Profile for Sven Zijlemaker   Email Sven Zijlemaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike, I contacted EVT last friday they said they would be operating again in November. It's very confusing to hear two different things.

Jacob, there also are Fipra and Andec in Germany they also can sound stripe your film. Do you also have thought about a sound viewer? There are some sound viewers which you can edit sound. You also can make a cable for record sound on your film from a stereo. I use this one for sound recording: http://super8data.com/database/viewers_list/viewers_erno/erno_re903nf.htm
There are different models.

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted July 21, 2013 05:05 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jacob
This projector would suit you and in within your price range.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chinon-Sound-6100-SUPER-8-Sound-cine-PROJECTOR-/350780809260?pt=UK_Photography_VintagePhotography_VintagePhotoAccessories&hash=item51ac2a602c

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Maurice

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 21, 2013 03:55 PM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Sven: Okay so what do sound viewers do? Do they allow you to see the film (much like an Super 8 film editor) whilst it being synchronized with sound?

Could you give me an example of how you record sound onto your film? For example, how do you hook up the viewer to the stereo and to the camera?

@Maurice: Thanks!

Side-note: I'm just looking for the easiest and cheapest way possible to put sound onto Super 8 film.

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Sven Zijlemaker
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 - posted July 22, 2013 02:51 AM      Profile for Sven Zijlemaker   Email Sven Zijlemaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jacob, a sound viewer is an super8 film editor but with the sound features.
For recording sound with a sound viewer you must have a model that can record sound. Some models don't have the record feature.
The cheapest way for record sound onto your film is with a sound projector. But personaly I think the eastiest way is using a sound viewer. If you have some type of recorder you can connect it to a stereo and play this back at a line for the recording output.

An example:
A stereo with a cassete recorder connected and with the possibility to connect a second cassete recorder. You also need a feature to record sound from the first cassete recorder to the second cassete recorder.
If you use (the most cheapest) a mono sound viewer you have to make a cable with a jack plug and on the other side a RCA/tulp plug. The viewer would need to have a aux in connection, here you put in the cable with the jack plug. The RCA/tulp plug goes to the line out of the second cassete recorer.
Then you playback the sound from the first recorder and set the stereo for line out on the second recorder. At last you record the sound on you viewer. There are viewer models that can be controlled in speed. You also can use a microphone if you want to speak something with the sound. If you have a projector with a aux out connection, you also can use the cable for playback on your stereo (the cable connectect to the line in).

But it is a personal thing I think for which system you use for sound.

Sven

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 22, 2013 10:34 PM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So I can basically record sound with a cassette and edit the film as well as record sound onto the film simultaneously with one of these devices?

Is that right?

I have another question, how did they use to edit sound onto film in the day? Did they use to edit all of the film together and then edit the sound later so that it would sink or what?

If I had a minidisc recorder would I connect the minidisc to the stereo and then a cable from the stereo that would connect into the sound editor to record sound?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 23, 2013 12:00 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you want to shoot something that needs sync sound, this is more complicated and you need material like what Mike and Sven described. This is of course an extra cost. I don't think that you can put pulses on a minidisc so I would be surprised that it would work with it.

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Dominique

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 23, 2013 01:31 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know syncing sound is pretty hard, especially if you don't have crystal sync. [Smile] .

If I have a sound editor like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/G oko-Multi-Recording-RM-3D-Super-8MM-Sound-Film-Editor-Bolex-Beaulieu-/290947838668?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bdd7b2cc what does the Mic, Aux and Moni mean?

Say for instance I had a cassette player and I recorded my sound for the film on it, how would I put the sound from the cassette onto the film? Which jack do I use? Minidisc recorder would be suitable or not suitable?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 23, 2013 03:20 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would use mic for a microphone, aux for a tape recorder and mon for a headphone. However, it may be confusing as sometimes aux may be a output jack and not an input one. For technical reasons, I couldn't open your link, so another member will probably give you more acurate informations. I suppose a minidisc would be like a tape recorder but of course this is to be checked.

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Dominique

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted July 23, 2013 02:35 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some AUX jacks are 5-pin DIN. These are both input and output, and can be stereo if the equipment is so wired.

One pin is common.

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Maurice

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted July 24, 2013 10:10 PM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Right so if I plugged in the cassette recorder that has sound on it to the aux jack and played the film and pressed record, sound would be embedded onto the film (provided that there is sound striping on the film of course)?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted July 24, 2013 10:28 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes.

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Dominique

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James N. Savage 3
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 - posted July 30, 2013 06:26 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have had much success with shooting on silent film and recording sound on cassette tape, then recording it to the film in post-production, completely MANUAL (no sync devices, etc.). It takes patience, but once you've completed a project successfully, its very rewarding. The results are actually better than direct sound film, because you can run the sound into other scenes for better flow, and less abrupt cuts.

James.

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Jacob Jones
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 - posted August 01, 2013 11:14 AM      Profile for Jacob Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So you just used a projector to record your sound?

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted August 01, 2013 12:28 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jacob, James records the sound on a tape recorder, then he transfers the sound on the sound strip of the film with his projectors and then he uses the projector to project the film as any other sound film. While the last step is achieved, the sound is on the strip sound of the film, you need the projector to read this sound strip.

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Dominique

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