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Topic: ST1200 scratching films

David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted June 17, 2014 02:09 PM

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hello all,
ive had 2 of my st1200 causing 2 small scratches,one slightly above the other,and remaining in picture over entire film. on one machine,these scratches were towards the left of frame,and the other towards right.
I think the clue may be in there being 2 scratches,one slightly above the other. I think the damage occurs after the gate.
any ideas as to cause?
thanks

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 17, 2014 02:44 PM

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If I had something like this, I'd lay the machine on its back, grab a flashlight (ummmm..."torch") and go through the projection path from end to end looking very closely and carefully. Using a magnifier is not too extreme.

I had a piece of leader tape wad up into a nasty little pyramid once and stick right where it could gouge a film. It was no larger than a millimeter and took some searching to find it.

Also you want to see that rollers roll freely and guides that are supposed to be semicircular in profile haven't worn a flat.

Everything should be clean enough to do surgery!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 17, 2014 03:27 PM

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Totally agree with Steve, and the surgical cleanliness reference is not an overstatement. I have found that as long as I keep my GS1200'S film path spotlessly clean and polished up, then it never scratches film. But I can't be lax about it, wipe and air blast before just about every reel.
For whatever reason my Eumig 938 is much more forgiving and can go many reels before cleaning is really necessary.
Projector cleanliness is also very dependent on film cleanliness and lubrication. A clean lubricated film will leave very little debris in the projector, whereas a dirty or dry film will require an immediate and thorough film path cleaning before the next reel can be projected safely.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted June 17, 2014 03:49 PM

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I also noticed that some projectors tend to attract more dust than other, especially on the projection gate.

[ December 20, 2014, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Dominique De Bast ]

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Dominique

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted June 17, 2014 04:46 PM

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one of the culprits on these elmos is the second green guide, the one after the head that takes the film under the second sprocket, apart from dirt building up here these guides do wear and can cause scrathing, when hanimax were dealers we bought six of these guides on the recommendation of two projector repair men at the time as well as Candy at hanimax. Its relativly easy to remove but patience and lots of light are required.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 18, 2014 02:23 AM

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Hi David.
1/ When I get a new projector (old obviously) I get a new short length of clear film thread it through the projector cut to length and splice together to make a continuous loop. Project this loop with sound to engage the mechanics and watch the picture for lines.

2/ If you are targeting a small area of the projector for damage make a shorter loop of film and only thread for that area then splice up the loop to run.

It’s actually very easy to find the area damaging films in this way and then you can take action from there accordingly.

I also now remove the green guides and lubricate with ‘Silicone Lubricant’ available off the shelf at Aldi £3 in aerosol. Squirt some on a cloth then apply to the green guides, leave to dry overnight and it gives the green runners a new lease of life.

Good luck. [Cool]

[Cool]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2014 04:03 AM

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The two small rollers mounted above the feed sprocket on the ST1200's are an absolute nightmare design for scratching films on these models. I have had 5 of these machines over the years, including all of the different variants,hoping that one would at least be totally kind to film. None of them have ever totally succeeded.

The best, I have found, is the earliest standard ST1200 models with the steel, silver coloured rollers. They seem to continue to turn (as designed) much longer after the later inferior white nylon ones stop turning. Once this is the case, the film almost always gets scratched!

All you can do to at least give yourself a fighting chance, is:-
1/ Take the assembly around the top sprocket completely apart and clean everything meticulously.
2/ Lubricate the inner bore of eack roller with a very small amount of light machine oil (3in1 is good).
3/ Ensure that when rebuilding the assembly, the rollers are placed the right way round, this is obvious when you look at the alignment of the protruding tracks.Many of these have been tampered with over the years and I have found that when I first obtain the machine, the rollers have indeed been put back incorrectly meaning the roller tracks actually enter into the film frame area and mis-align against the stationary green guide tracks beneath...in this instance the conclusion is instant scratching!

Once all the above has been carried out, at least then your rollers should turn when film is sandwiched between the sprocket teeth and the rollers tracks as per design spec.
You then stand half a chance of at least getting a feature through one of these, relatively unscathed, while ever the rollers continue to turn.

Bear in mind however, this is not the one and only place these machines CAN scratch film, just the most common by far. Very poor design indeed regarding the auto threading guides.

[ June 18, 2014, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 18, 2014 06:40 AM

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I have always wondered why on earth Elmo elected to feed the film OVER the top sprocket, when the logical design, followed by Eumig and most everybody else, is to feed UNDER the top sprocket.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2014 08:35 AM

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Quite right Paul, quite right! Due to poor design as Paul endorses,not only does the machine scratch, but all scratches are emulsion type!!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

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From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted June 18, 2014 08:59 AM

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Maybe it's just itchy? [Eek!]

[Eek!]

[Roll Eyes]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted June 18, 2014 01:15 PM

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many thanks for all these suggestions,i now have some ideas to work on.

david

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 19, 2014 10:58 AM

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Good luck then David, but don't expect miracles on these machines.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted December 20, 2014 11:19 AM

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Is it a good idea to lub the filmpath with Filmguard instead of silicone or is it volatile ? Silicone looks too greasy for me.

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Dominique

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: California
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posted December 21, 2014 02:38 PM

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Filmguard is not so volatile and is ideal for wet (damp) projection. FilmRenew and VitaFilm are best used outdoors or in good ventilation and not run wet through a projector and I would consider them volatile. It's possible in theory to use multiple chemicals such as these on a print separately over a period of time since they all have somewhat different properties and advantages.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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posted December 21, 2014 05:18 PM

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Bill, I didn't mean volatile on film lub and cleaning purposes but to lub a filmpath on a projector instead of silicone. I have never done that and would probably never have thought of that without having read other members advices.

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Dominique

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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posted December 22, 2014 04:31 PM

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I decided to try Filmguard on two projections paths. I don't know if it is good for lubrification purposes but it does work for cleaning ones. I was surpised to see that the filmpath of my st1200 was so dirty as I clean the filmpaths from time to time with alcool (but I don't remember when I cleaned the st 1200's for the last time).

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Dominique

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted December 27, 2014 10:10 AM

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since my original post re, st1200 scratching,i have changed over to bauer projectors.i think I did sort out the elmos,but my confidence in them was gone, such a shame,because apart from that,i really liked the st1200"s.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 27, 2014 11:04 AM

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David, you will have no such issues with your Bauer. Hopefully you purchased the T610. They are just superb in nearly every aspect. Upgrade it to the switchable FFR Filmtechnik 2/3 bladed shutter conversion c/w the superb Schneider f1.1 Xenovaron lens and you have a dream machine.
If you can manage to find a long play unit for it, you will never look back I can promise you that.

The Elmo s would be ok if they had only addressed the film path issues that come with them from beginning to end.

Use filmguard and just sit back, relax, and enjoy your films over and over again with no fears whatsoever!

While the machine has a healthy cam and claw it will run perfectly as well as almost silently. Years down the line, if your machine starts to develop a problem, just write back on here for solutions and all can be rectified for many years therafter.

[ December 27, 2014, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 27, 2014 07:09 PM

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You pay the best part of £800 even now for anything worth having, and Paul states you can never be lax?

Well I'm sorry, I truly love the hobby, but if I had to live in a surgeons theatre in a constant state of fear of wrecking my entire Super 8mm film collection all for the sake of tolerating a noisy old scratching GS..... then it would have to go for a second time around, hobby or no hobby I'm afraid!

Thank God there are more practical alternatives that I have found, or else, no doubt, this would be the second time for selling all that I have that would still be remotely of any value!!

When I was a youngster, I used to dream of owning a GS 1200, luckily I never went down that road!

For the life of me, I have never understood why these machines are rated so highly without trying the rest, given all of their major flaws????

In this day and age, who needs pulse sync anyhow? All synchronization issues can be more than catered for using modern digital video software.

[ December 28, 2014, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted December 29, 2014 11:22 AM

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thanks for that Andrew. I have a bauer t60,and a 502,both quite cheap,and both superb. and I can now relax when showing films,even though the scratches from the old projectors are still there,at least there wont be any new ones.!
also,i am happy with 800ft reels,they are easy to store,and I like watching in 40 minute chunks.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 29, 2014 11:24 AM

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Great stuff David. The T60 is a nice machine from all accounts.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted December 29, 2014 02:42 PM

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You know what? Reading this I have to say this, I am an Elmo man through and through but even though I treat them like a pair of teeth, I clean them thoroughly and regularly but yes I do agree, over the years (and despite changing or cleaning all the green guides) I do note some scratching to the right on some of the films I bought from brand new. I'm not to familiar with the Bauer projectors but can you all point me in the direction of the best of the bunch, I would have to have a model that takes a minimum of 800 foot spools. [Wink]

[Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 29, 2014 03:17 PM

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T610 the best a man can get! Tom.

It's just the best feeling in the world being able to watch your most valued over and over and over again with no such fear and you really do only have to do the most minimal of cleaning.

When they go wrong, they will scratch, but the signs when this starts to happen are obvious and sudden. At that point simply get the cam and claw serviced and you are good to go all over again for another 5 years or so.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted December 29, 2014 03:36 PM

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i shall look into this, thanks Andrew. [Wink]

[Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 29, 2014 03:44 PM

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Compared to an ST, you would never look back Tom. Just make sure the heads are good and cam and claw run smoothly and very quietly just as they should. Got all the info on these for any issues you would ever possibly encounter.

No optical sound, just like Beaulieu, but that is the only real drawback.

For that, there is always the Fujicascope SH30

Have a look on the Super 8 Database Tom and see what you think.
I can also send you some video footage of mine in action c/w the long play arms and 2400ft reels if you would like to weigh it all up.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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