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Topic: Uneven film spooling?

Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 12, 2017 11:09 AM

I was just checking a print on a very full 800ft reel. The print was nice and played well but when I went to rewind it back on the original reel (a bonum) the film was all squishy with a loose pack and it was higher on one side of the reel than the other. This was rewinding using the machine (GS1200). If I hand wound it slowly it was a little better.
It seems the bonum reel has too much give on the sides so it allows each side of the reel to push out just a little bit more as you near the outer edges of the reel.
I think I have only one other film that seems "squishy" when rewound back onto its reel.
Does anyone else have this problem and is there a way to relax the film so it winds nicely and evenly? I don't want to give up an Elmo 800ft reel but it doesn't seem to do that with that reel.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 12, 2017 11:52 AM

is it acetate or myler stock, Alan?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 12, 2017 12:06 PM

Derann Estar.

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted February 12, 2017 12:24 PM

That sort of thing used to happen on Walton prints without a balance stripe. I've never found it on a Derann print. However, as I have said in other posts, I did put a bit of tension on the film as it rewinds (to stop dust getting into it) so that might be it, the tension on the feed spool during rewind might be a little too low. Try rewinding with a finger gently on the feed hob, not the rim (it moves too fast and will cut you.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 12, 2017 12:32 PM

I've had a few like this. I find at if I put a little pressure on one edge of the film as it's rewinding so that it enters the supply reel slightly twisted, it lays out in tighter layers and it fits just fine. As far as I can tell it's the result of friction between the film and the inside of the flanges.

-classically it happens on the last reel of the night, roughly 11:30 when I'm tired and I want to be done pretty badly!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 12, 2017 12:36 PM

When aging acetate stock begins twisting and warping ive seen small spool examples of this but never on Ester stock using quality spools like Bonum.

Is your rewind tension good Alan?

Personally i rate the Bonum spools as high as any for storing films on in their plastic boxes.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 13, 2017 10:22 AM

All the examples of this I have are polyester based films (Deranns and Blackhawks...).

I thought is was an issue of friction between the layers once. I figured that if the film was more slippery it would tend to rewind tighter. I had a particularly stubborn Blackhawk which we Filmguarded as an experiment.

-it didn't help.

This is one of those "stuff it in the box and deal with it later" things, kind of like replacing a missing shirt button with a safety pin!

Unfortunately life being what it is I forget about it and it comes back to haunt me a few months or a year later.

("oh yeahhhh...")

[ February 13, 2017, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

posted February 13, 2017 10:47 AM

i have a few like this myself, and have always thought it was the reel rather than the film being an issue. The fact that you say it doesn't happen on the elmo reel Alan, makes me believe it is the reel still.
In fact, for this very problem I have been on the hunt for some good reels to transfer these problematic films too, but wasn't sure which to choose.
I have some reels that are unmarked unfortunately, because i love them, they are solid and don't seem to rub film, but without any markings, i am not sure what to hunt for.
Steve's observance that filmguard didn't help with his issue makes me lean to reel once again.
I wish an experiment could be done with a problematic film and a few different 'good' reels to see which eliminate the issue...

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Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 13, 2017 10:51 AM

You are dead on Steve! I just put it back in the case and will deal with it later....all film lumped higher on one side than the other!
I had hand wound it with proper tension with only "slightly" better results. The film still looks great, sounds great, just sits on the reel unevenly. Looks like there's no solution to this one.
I did try with Filmguard as well. Didn't help. But I did find the Elmo 800ft reel worked well. Not sure why the Bonum is not working well with this film however.
I wonder if I ever sell it if I will have to put in the description: Please note that film winds unevenly when rewound back to original reel?

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 13, 2017 11:13 AM

Without a shred of evidence I want to say the reels have somehow...shrunken! (I'm looking for a better theory myself...)

What I usually see is fairly early on you start to get a bulge on one side of the film as it rewinds. As the bulge grows centrifugal force starts to take over (-no film to film contact on that side) and the bulge grows out of control until you have the Exxon Valdez of film spills!

(Sometimes an 18 FPS rewind keeps the bulge under control. -less centrifugal force.)

You learn a lot about the inertia of the take-up reel at times like these. The natural thing to do at this moment is stop the machine and grab the supply reel, but all that rotating mass wants to keep on keeping on and that film joins the fun too!

-just because the front of the train is off the tracks doesn't keep the back of the train from joining the disaster!

What was kind of interesting is I showed a film to my extended family at Christmas. I was rewinding after I was done and my Nephew's five year old daughter asked me why there wasn't any picture.

She has no idea what "rewinding" IS! (In this case: lucky kid!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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