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Author Topic: Bauer T10 problem
Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 10, 2017 12:37 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just picked up a T60 from a Thrift store auction. Lights and motor work fine in reverse, but only the lights work in forward....no motor at all. The switch is mechanical and seems to work ok. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[ May 11, 2017, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Barry Fritz ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 12:41 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like a micro switch Barry, either not quite contacting or broken /bent lever or roller etc

Bauer machines often have a camshaft off the main control knob.
You can check the functionality of each of the main control knob positions by placing a multimeter across the terminals of each of the resulting micro switches in resistance or continuity mode to see if one isn't doing its job quite right.

Leave the mains lead out of the machine while doing this task.
No power required or indeed necessary.

Having just seen a photo though, these are very old Bauer designed machines so it may very well not have a camshaft or any micro switches. I'd have to see inside it to know for sure how it gets its power from the control knob on a machine as old as this is. (1950's I think?)

[ May 10, 2017, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted May 10, 2017 12:45 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it's anything like the machines I know. There is a switch running to each motor terminal. These choose +DC or -DC so that the motor can be connected one polarity or the other and go in the direction you need it to go.

These are activated by cams on the shaft the control knob turns.

To me it sounds like one of yours has a bad contact and your motor voltage is going no further.

I'm sure this one is worth the effort, but these are buried deep in the bowels of the machine. I'm not saying they are hard to replace, but once you succeed you really deserve a beer!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 02:22 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
To get to the camshaft on any, there is always a fair bit of dismantling and cable detachment / labelling on any I've worked on in this area.

It's a lot easier and quicker when spade connectors are fitted.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted May 10, 2017 03:06 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Van Eck's site has some pictures of this standard 8 projector which may help as there is a shot of the interior. Click on T10R.
https://www.van-eck.net/itable.php?lang=nl&size=0&cat=film&merk=13&type=T10 R

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Maurice

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:15 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are pics of the camshaft part of the switch. The arrow points to what I believe is the cam for the forward motor movement. Odd thing is, the terminals here indicate continuity when the cam is not pressing down on the metal tab. With the cam pressing it down, there is no continuity. That is the opposite of all the other terminals with cams.
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:30 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Barry, you should be able to tell by observing the switch position whilst also looking at the various cam lobes, how this camshaft was intended to switch.

Are all the lobes logical in their placement?
Does it make sense in other words that the lobe is moving each section of the mechanism to make the desired connection in relationship with main switch knobs marked positions?

If they are all in the same logical position, the only possibility could be that two wires have been switched around maybe (put back wrong) NO / NC for example, or the switch mechanism is faulty in some way or one of the cables themselves is OC but this is unlikely even if not impossible.
(Nothing ever is!)

The photographs don't really allow us to see the actual switch mechanism unfortunately only the cam lobes and some of the contacts / terminals.

Does this camshaft and switching mechanism reverse the polarity to the motor as Steve suggested?

You might have to "ring" the circuit from each terminal pictured to the actual motor terminals to fully understand what is happening in this circuit without any drawings.
This when compared to the cam lobe position in each case added to the actual main control knob position and markings, should then begin to make some sense to you as to what is allowing the circuit to fail.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted May 10, 2017 03:34 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
He has much better access than usual.

-The last time I did one of these, I swear I briefly saw the Ark of the Covenant!

I'm guessing there are two switches to the motor. One chooses the connection for each motor lead. If you choose forward, each will choose one power supply lead or the other. If you choose reverse, each will chose the opposite.

When you look with with an ohmmeter, the good switch will make a choice either way, but the bad one will only make a choice in reverse.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:45 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First off, I don't know what I was thinking when I called this thing a T10. It is a T60. Here are some more pics. Andrew, it appears to me that the cams are working as they should. When switched, lights and reverse work. Forward has three positions, Thread, half light and full light. Motor does not run in any of these selections.
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:48 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Ah...different animal altogether then! 😂

Does the lamp illuminate in each mode?
In other words those circuits are good?

Sorry just read the beginning again, and indeed they do!

Just forward direction then...

My drawings and service manuals are in my case of the T610 currently at the lock up. I will have a look on my pc to see if I have any electrical drawings for this model on my main pc but I know they are not covered in the T610 / 525 service manual although this part of the set up may well be almost identical. The motor is very different though.
The layout in general is quite similar to what I am familiar with seeing on the T610's.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:51 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes. You can see the switch cam mechanism and terminal in the lower right. I think that entire mechanism may just slide off the knob shaft. I may need to try that to see if something is amiss with the forward motor terminal. Connecting the terminals there with a jumper wire should make the motor go, shouldn't it?

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted May 10, 2017 03:54 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As thrift store machines go, this is quite a find!

I've never seen a machine there I'd use for more than a doorstop!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 03:58 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Straight away Barry, I can see now that this model has a large mechanical lever on top of it.
Is this the 18fps / 24fps lever? (White)

I'm sure this is an a.c. motor which would then explain why the white lever is needed.
If it an a.c. motor the forward reverse direction changes will be mechanical not electrical.
The motor rotational direction should never change in forwards or reverse, only the gearing through a mechanical arrangement.

I've just looked on S8 database at this model, but there is no mention of the motor type there sadly, but it appears to be an a.c. motor from your photo and that large white lever on top.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 10, 2017 04:00 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Andrew. It moves the belt that can be seen next to the fan.
Steve, If I can't get this working, that may be all it is good for!

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 400
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 10, 2017 04:08 PM      Profile for David Roberts   Email David Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yes Andrew,its the speed change lever.
have just been using my t60,great machine.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 04:08 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
All it now points to Barry, is somehow the voltage that is present on the motor terminals in reverse, isn't present in forwards projection mode unless of course the motor is seizing for whatever reason when trying to drive the gearing arrangement in the forwards direction.

The next stage, first off, is to very carefully test whether you have an a.c. voltage on the motor terminals in the forwards direction like you do in the reverse direction.

Only if you're confident on working on this machine live though Barry and certainly keep well away from the transformer until detached from the mains again.

Thanks btw David for confirming the lever.

Another test Barry, would be to slip off the motor drive belt temporarily just to see if the issue is an electrical one or a mechanical one. The motor should turn easily then when your main control knob is placed in forwards projection mode or reverse projection mode as it does already but only in reverse with the belt fitted, if the problem is a mechanical one.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
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 - posted May 10, 2017 04:09 PM      Profile for David Roberts   Email David Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Barry,this is a great machine so I hope you can sort out a fix.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 10, 2017 04:16 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Just noticed the large capacitor for the motor also which is a dead giveaway that its an a.c. motor also.

David, if Barry gets nowhere with this tonight, (it's becoming late here already for a school night!😂), could you possibly confirm tomorrow on your model that the motor shaft itself moves in the same rotational direction in both forwards and reverse please?

Just the motor shaft itself please David.

This is typically how things are on these size of motors used in these applications, but there is a very slight possibility it could rotate in both directions depending on run and start winding configurations if a switch was fitted to it internally.
(Highly unlikely though and certainly doesn't appear to be this type)

We very much first need to establish what enables this type of machine to switch from forwards to reverse direction from the actual main control knob. It is not clear from any of the photographs so far, whether the knob also moves a series of mechanical linkages like on the T610. This can only be seen from the front of the machine with the cover removed.
Even then, on a 525 /610 these linkages do not control the motor direction because it has a D.C. motor, but on this one, they may I'm guessing, through a series of gears. (Again unclear just from these photographs alone. The flywheel doesn't help either for seeing what happens to the main drive belt and beyond. It appears to go down to a worm gear I'd guess).

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 11, 2017 05:59 AM      Profile for David Roberts   Email David Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew,
have checked my t60,and the motor runs both clockwise and anti clockwise,depending on forward or reverse projection.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 11, 2017 06:32 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks David. That makes it very different then to other machines like a S938 for example, in how it works.
On these, the motor runs constantly in one direction as soon as it is powered up. The drive chain then just changes direction mechanically.
Same on an ST 1200 i think from memory though its been a while since i last worked on one of those.

I think Barrys best move then first would be to verify that the motor still does not turn with the drive belt taken off the motor pulley, then it would come back to requiring the drawings for one of these to see what actually switches the power supply to the motor in forward and reverse. Might just be the camshaft and connections again, might be more to it??
Anyone have the schematics for one of these plesse?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 11, 2017 07:04 AM      Profile for David Roberts   Email David Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew,
I also have the 520 duoplay model which is a later model,that has the same speed change lever,so would think it has the same motor as t60.
this probably doesn't help much,except someone may have a circuit for the 520.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 11, 2017 09:03 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks David. I could do with seeing drawings for either the T60 or the 520 to gain a better understanding of how these are switching rotation.

How many cables enter the motor David or Barry?
David are you able to measure the voltages present on each cable end from your motor in forwards and reverse?
This would certainly help in understanding what Barrys issue with his may be just in fwd mode.

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 11, 2017 09:20 AM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Guys: Andrew, the motor has three wires. One green and two orangish. I did a bit of testing. I have determined that the terminal 1 is for Forward, and terminal 2 is for Reverse. Each terminal has a wire from the motor and a black wire running to the capacitor. Terminal three is double, and serves terminals 1 and 2. It has a blue wire that runs up to the transformer. Number 4 is a coupling that has an orange wire from the motor and a black wire that runs up to a terminal on the back of the dial where you select the voltaqe. Thus, I believe it is the power to the motor. Voltage readings for terminals are as follows:

Terminal 1: Off is 121.8V On is 200.7V

Terminal 2: Off is 121.8V On is 121.8V

I cannot figure out why the 200.7V reading is there.
UPDATE: I think I found the problem. First off, when the cam turns down into the assembly, that disconnects the circuit. It pushes down a small metal tab that is the connector. Turning the cam up releases the little tab and it touches the terminal across from it. It seems to be working on the Forward terminal, but I can't see if the tab is actually touching. So, I took a jumper wire and fixed it to terminal three and touched the other end to terminal 1. Voila, motor spins nicely. Now I have to see if I can discover why the connection is faulty. The tab looks fine but it is supposed to touch the underside of the 1 terminal, and apparently it isn't. Some bending may be in order.

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[ May 11, 2017, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Barry Fritz ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 11, 2017 02:12 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Well done Barry. Sorry I have been in work all day and can only post sporadically.

I did see your latest post in the afternoon here, but I was trying to understand how you could be seeing 200v at one of the terminals in your part of the world.

That part in all this, still remains a mystery.
As you say just a bit of slight bending etc, to make better contact as a connection and hopefully you are up and running!

Well done once again and some good learning here for everyone who has never had any experience with this particular machine.
Myself very much included! [Smile]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted May 11, 2017 03:01 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well guys, I have it working correctly! I have a tool with a little hook on the end, and by reaching in and pulling up on the tab slightly, I got it working! Nice quiet machine. Ran some leader through it and it threaded just fine. Drive belt is cracked but working for now. Hope I never have to change it..it looks difficult. Now I just need to find a Manual for it. Thanks guys.

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