8mm Forum: Digital Transfer at Projector Gate

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Topic: Digital Transfer at Projector Gate

Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted March 21, 2019 08:13 PM

I use some darn cheap 12v LED panel (2-3$ each) as the light source,and some off-the-shelf 12vdc power supply to run it. That's it,no problem so far. [Wink]

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted March 26, 2019 04:15 PM

Update: Received Simpson Optical 16mm 2" Focus f1.6 Lens via eBay - but barrel is 29mm so will not fit existing Lens Carrier! (Existing Lens on B&H 483 is B&H f1.2 19-32 Zoom and 25mm (1")diameter) Clearly all these lenses do not fit this projector. I guess I need to keep looking for the Keystone-type lens . . . . .

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted March 26, 2019 06:53 PM

Is the base too wide or too narrow? If too narrow just wrap black electrical tape around it. I have to do this with my one of my lenses.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted March 26, 2019 07:41 PM

Janice: The old B&H 483 Projector Lens is 1" diameter at the insertion end ie smaller than the Simpson 16mm Lens which is almost 1 1/8" diameter and so cannot be inserted into the Lens Holder.
I am checking a Wollensak 2"SUNRAY on line - so keep fingers crossed . . . .

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted March 26, 2019 09:16 PM

Perhaps you can have the seller measure the dimensions. This would avoid you buying something that won't fit. The Bell & Howell is pretty unforgiving when it comes to the lens barrel size.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted March 26, 2019 09:56 PM

Uh-oh,

You sure can insert small-barrel lens into large-barrel lens mount,but not other way round. [Roll Eyes]

Not sure which solution is easier between keeping the projector and trying to find a new smaller barrel lens,or keeping the lens and finding another dual8 projector which accepts larger lens (Sankyo name springs up into my mind now).

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted April 18, 2019 04:02 PM

I have fitted (Keystone) 16mm Lens as recommended by Janice into my B&H 483 Projector, and captured from Sony TRV 740 with editing software Corel VideoStudio 2019(Trial Version) Of course the 16mm/ movie camera combo is shooting "reversed" - so, using Corel, I was also able to "flip" the movie to the mirror image. Results were still a bit "fuzzy"ie unsharp even with best manual focus and exposure etc which I could obtain. From experience, what is best distance for front of Sony lens to front of Projector Lens??

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted April 18, 2019 06:21 PM

Hi John...Glad you were able to get a 16mm lens to fit your projector. As far as the sharpness of the capture remember you are doing "realtime" capturing. Even shooting off the gate it will never be as sharp as frame by frame scanning. However, I started out doing realtime capturing and got very acceptable results using post capture software enhancements. If Corel Video Studio has sharpening tools you can try to see if that helps. One of the best software for degraining and sharpening software is NeatVideo https://www.neatvideo.com/overview/what-is-it. . NeatVideo has a plugin filter for VirtualDub2 https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdfiltermod/. I recommend using VirtualDub2 (it can reverse your captured footage...adjust the framerate... and you can load other enhancement filters besides NeatVideo. VirtualDub is free, but NeatVideo is not. VirtualDub2 can import multiple video file formats...whereas original VirtualDub will only import AVI files.

There is no set distance paramenters I can give you since it all depends on your projector lens and your camcorder lens. You just need to adjust one or both to get the sharpest image you can. Make sure you are not using digital zoom.

[ April 18, 2019, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted April 18, 2019 08:47 PM

With the camera away,can you look into the lens and see the "magnified" image of the film there? Is it sharp/bright/clear to your eyes? If yes,it is the camcorder's settings that is still somewhat "off" I guess. [Wink]

BTW I'm about to do a customer's S8 transfer job tonight or tomorrow. May post the picture of my setup for your reference,too. [Smile]

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted April 30, 2019 01:54 PM

Tests re-filmng with (a) Sony DCR-TRV 740 and (b) Canon DSLR EOS Rebel T6i show latter is better quality (more control ie ISO, WB, focus, shutter etc).

Used 24v 20W Halogen Reflector Lamp in QLV-1 Holder on B&H 483 Projector.

Avoided "hotspots" (temporarily!) with glass plate (old picture frame) and three sheets of white paper.

Would welcome any suggestions re better diffuser between halogen lamp and gate? (ground glass?)

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JAR

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Buck Bito
Junior
Posts: 18
From: San Francisco, CA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011

posted April 30, 2019 07:54 PM

Opal glass is what we used back when we ran film-chains:
https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/opal-diffusing-glass/11914/
It looks like there is now a cheaper option called White Diffusing Glass, but I have no experience with it:
https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/white-diffusing-glass/15084/

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movettefilm.com

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted April 30, 2019 09:16 PM

I DIY'd a diffuser which I used in my 16mm projector. I got the idea from this YouTube video:

https://youtu.be/z7c9aKA301U

I just insert the diffuser into the front of the lamp.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted April 30, 2019 10:04 PM

I uses 2 layers of tracing paper as diffuser. [Big Grin]

Works perfect for me.

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted June 13, 2019 04:37 PM

Update: (Almost) acceptable results achieved now re-filming 50-yr old Super 8 in B&H 483 Projector with Canon T6i DSLR. Changed Lamp to 110v/7Watt LED on angle bracket with Dimmer, with 1/8" sheet of opaque poly(UHMWPE) as condenser between lamp and gate. Final problem - projector speed control! Many tests with various f numbers, definition settings, shutter speeds, at 30p as well as 60p - annoying strobe "shadow" moves up or down screen due to unpredictable slight projector speed variation. Need precise control of motor speed (electrically). Does anyone know what motor type is in B&H 483 (1965)? If synchronous motor - I am told it is tricky/expensive to control. If other - maybe speed control (with feedback) is possible? Would love to hear about this.

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 14, 2019 12:00 AM

John... I haven't measured my B&H variable speed projector for max speed. The non-variable speed models max out at 18 fps. If your projector is only running at 18 or 19 fps when dial is at max speed... then this would definitely cause banding (rolling gray bars). You need 20 fps to sync with your camera. I use a digital tachometer to measure the rpm of the shutter.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted June 14, 2019 01:21 AM

Janice: Thx - the narrow dark band moves down the screen when the speed control is too low, and when more speed, the band moves up the screen - but never disappears.
(1) Are you measuring the speed at the motor, the hand-operated knurled wheel at the front of the Projector, near the lens? or what? (2) Can you recommend a usable/appropriate tach?
Thx again for prompt reply. PS Several other tinkerers have added electrical speed control to stabilise the film speed, since the split pulley vee-drive is imprecise and speed varies. Synchronous motors are hardest to control. DC are relatively easy. I have not been able to determine what type of motor is in the B&H 483. Web source shows Motor as "magnetic". Service Manual refers only to "Motor Assembly" . . .

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 14, 2019 03:20 AM

John - The Super8 database says that the motor on the 483 is DC...however the databse is not always accurate.

You need to measure the rotating 3-blade shutter - not the fan. It's the Frames Per Second you are measuring since that is the image rate being captured by your camera.

Take a look at this thread. It has a picture of the tach I bought and explains the process.

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009387

[ June 14, 2019, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 15, 2019 08:56 PM

Hi John...I decided to check out the speed range on my B&H 482. I'm no expert at this and my tachometer is NOT an expensive meter and may not be completely accurate. That said I have used it to calibrate my sound projectors with good results. However, telecine is a little more exacting when it comes to frame rate synchronization. It's best if your projector speed can run faster than 20fps so you have more variance in adjustment.

I measured the shutter speed with the slow motion switch turned off and only turning the rheostat speed control knob:

Lowest speed 14.83 fps
Highest speed 19.83 fps

If I were to try to use this projector for telecine...without a special shutter speed adjustment feature on my camcorder...I would probably get flicker or banding just as you are experiencing.

I know this may not be what you wanted to hear...but I've never used this projector for film transfers. The projectors I've used such as the Sankyo 2500H, the Chinon 727 Whisper, the Bell & Howell 11XJ and the Chinon 4000GL all had variable speeds ranging from 14-22fps.

Maybe your speed measurements will be more accurate than mine with more promising results.

[ June 17, 2019, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted June 16, 2019 02:22 PM

Janice: Thanks for doing that test - though results are not too promising! Should have my new Tach by Tuesday - have to drive to US to pick it up - then we'll see. If speed is actually below 20 fps, then I may have to change drive arrgt on B&H 483. Possibly can achieve a higher output speed to shutter disk by replacing "belt" (O-ring) with thicker one, which would force belt out to larger radius on split-vee motor pulley . . . Ultimately I would like speed control to be more constant than this motor can provide. Clearly this design it was good enough for projection -but "wanders" out of synch for telecine. Other 8mm threads have suggested eg sewing machine motor. Your source suggested motor is DC. Mine suggested it is "magnetic" I need a source to define what type of motor is in the B&H 483? Any ideas?

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 16, 2019 03:52 PM

John...Here is the 8mm Database listing for the B&H 483. Unless it's a misprint...it describes the motor as DC Magnetic. If this is correct then it's not an either/or requirement.

Bell & Howell Autoload
marketed in 1969-70

design: 483A
super 8 mm film
lens: f: 1.2 \ F: 19-32 mm
lamp: 250 W, 120 V, DLH
light settings: bright, normal, low
reel capacity: 120 m
projection: forward, reverse, still
projection speed: normal and slow motion, variable
variable speed control: by rheostat
film loading: automatic threading
manual unloading: possible
sound: no
film cutter: yes
motor: DC magnetic motor
power source: 120 V AC, 60 Hz
weight: ?
dimensions: ?
made in Usa by Bell & Howell

[ June 16, 2019, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted June 16, 2019 05:19 PM

Janice: Thanks again - but very confusing.
It would be nice if the motor was universal or DC - simpler control.
BTW, I found this on the Forum:
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008956
I have sent a private message to Joe - so hope he is still around

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JAR

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted June 16, 2019 07:30 PM

Simply put - that the curse of CMOS sensor camera. You'll ALWAYS get some banding as the result,and there's nothing much you can do with that.
And the bad news - most (if not all) of today's camera/camcorder uses CMOS sensor,period. [Frown]

This is the reason I still retain my good'ole Panasonic GS400 as my workhorse. A good top end SD consumer,with 3CCD sensors,hence no banding at all. [Big Grin]

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John A Reid
Junior
Posts: 27
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Aug 2018

posted June 16, 2019 10:15 PM

Janice: Nantawat makes an excellent but disappointing point re CCD better than CMOS sensor with "rolling shutter" whereas CCD cameras often have global shutter - so no banding problem. Maybe I made a big mistake using Canon T6i with CMOS . . . ?
Comments welcomed.

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JAR

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 16, 2019 11:37 PM

The CMOS vs CCD was going to be my next post, but Nantawat beat me to it [Smile]

. Not all CMOS sensors produce visable banding. I use a Canon Vixia HV40... a HF200, and a HF20 (all have CMOS sensors) with no banding issues as long as the projector runs at the correct speed for syncing. However, the CMOS image sensors are much smaller on the camcorders versus the sensor on the T6i camera. The rolling shutter with the larger sensor might make the banding more prominent (I don't know if this is the case or not), but you first need to make sure your projector is running at a correct syncing speed before you can determine the CMOS is definitely causing the banding.

[ June 17, 2019, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted June 17, 2019 03:29 AM

And Janice just made the BIG point. [Wink]

If you can tune in the projector to the EXACT sync speed,the banding should be minimized.
Tried that with my camcorder (Canon legria hf-g30) by setting at 25p node,with 1/25 second shutter speed. Running the projector at precisely 16.67 fps to give least amount of banding.

The result is quite good,the banding is still there but barely noticeable. Only when the speed is waaaay off the sync that the banding will be prominent again.

But since you're living in NTSC world,your sync speed&correct camera settings will be different from me of course.

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