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Topic: theatrical digital revolution

Andreas Eggeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 467
From: R.I.P.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted December 10, 2006 04:09 AM

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I sell tickets one day a week in a cinema.

Our multiplex offering digital projection since two weeks.

[Eek!]

[Eek!]

uffffff

[Roll Eyes]

Friday Dec. 1st, Happy Feet (digital), Room 5, one of the biggest screens in South-Germany, stunning picture, stunning colors, execellent brightness.

Half hour later, Happy Feet (35mm), Room 1,
the picture is dark and.......
the focus is not correctly adjusted. [Mad]

[Mad]

That´s not the only one thing:
There are often lines on the prints after
one week. [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

Last Friday there came a customer to my colleague
and asked what the advantage of digital projection is.
He said that a digital projection doesn´t show
lines and picture quality is better as analog.

I got almost a thick neck. [Eek!]

[Eek!]

When the customer was away, I cleared him up that this have less to do with the medium than rather how you handle a 35mm print.

I working not as a projectionist now,
but during my time as a student I did.
I worked as one till 1998 in an other theatre.

As I am grown up with super8, I was always endeavored to keep the picture clean and sharp.
I controlled regularly. The automatic change-over of flat on scope had to go without sharpness jump over the stage. And that was possible and feasible.
We consisted only of pupils and students. And all who came into our team, I swore in on a good projection, to give the audience the best possible quality.
Up to once, when a beginner used a ball-point pen for the adjustment of the film pressure plate, lines were no topic.

Last Friday I saw few minutes of "Departed" (digital) and I must say, there is no difference between digital and analog, if the
projectionist is doing a good job.

Nevertheless, I think that the dead of celluloid coming soon and therefor the dead of new super8 releases in future.

What do you think?

best
Andreas

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John Clancy
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posted December 10, 2006 04:19 AM

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I've feared the same thing for a number of years now. However, the longer real film hangs on the more chance there will be that it will stick around as a heritage medium. Some cinemas may be able to get 35mm prints for years after it is supposed to be dead (labs in countries such as India and China may start supplying prints to the West) and therefore be able to promote their screenings as something different i.e. "On Real Film!".

Look how the Morgan car company manages to keep going year after year selling a car that is now over 50 years old. Film will hopefully do something similar.

The Odeon Leicester Square put in a much better projector a couple of years ago (their first couple of efforts were dreadful) and this projector is generally of the same quality as modern 35mm film. However, 35mm film has been dumbed down in recent years probably in an effort to get people to accept el cheapo video.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
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posted December 10, 2006 04:40 AM

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I went with my wife to a theatre owner convention a few weeks ago and I had the opportunity to discuss this with a few managers. They all told me that the investment on a really good DP was enormous and that the return on such an investment wasn't worthy since people of the GP don't make the difference between film and video. The really big multiplexes might get one unit or two but the smaller one (let alone the 1 theatre venues) aren't ready to switch yet. So film might still be around for a while.

--------------------
The Grindcave Cinema Website

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John Clancy
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posted December 11, 2006 04:47 AM

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Second hand video projectors will be the way to go for smaller venues eventually but is sounds like 35mm is going to be around a long while yet.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Joerg Polzfusz
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posted December 11, 2006 04:48 AM

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Hi,

when showing real films, the cinema only has to take care of their existing projectors. And servicing/maintaining those projectors is cheap.
When switching to digital projection, the cinema would have to spend 100000 to 150000 EUR per new projector. And servicing/maintaining those projectors will cost a fortune (problems with dead pixels, stuck mirrors, shorter bulb-life, ...).

In other words: With digital projection only the distributor "wins" since a few DVDs per film will be much cheaper than a print, while the costs per screening will rise on the cinemas' side.
And since most cinemas are now close to bankruptcy, I doubt that they will switch to digital soon. (soon = next 10 years)

Jörg
P.S.: I doubt that quality is an issue when it comes to digital vs. real film. Otherwise the film industry wouldn't have stopped shooting on 65mm negatives and doing 70mm prints (from either 65mm or 35mm negatives).

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Andreas Eggeling
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posted December 11, 2006 05:08 AM

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My opinion is, that the major studios and major distributors dig their own grave.

With DP smaller companies can be better established.

The internet shows, what creative potential is in the world possible without large backers.

hello majors, already times remembered, how independent one is of you without 35mm? Do not save at the 35mm copies. Save to stars.

Finally large films were possible also without million-payments in the early days.

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Joerg Polzfusz
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posted December 11, 2006 05:58 AM

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quote:
My opinion is, that the major studios and major distributors dig their own grave.

IMHO this won't be such a bad thing! (I'm just thinking about the large number of films I've seen the last two years and about the very, very small number of Hollywood-productions I've recommended to my friends... . To me it looks like Hollywood does have a major problem called "lack of ideas". Just take a look at the increasing number of remakes, prequels, sequels and CG-films that all look like Madagaskar... .)

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Barry Johnson
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posted December 11, 2006 06:08 AM

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Cinemas close to bankrupcy eh? Glad I dont live in Germany then as our industry is alive and very much kicking.
Student Projectionist?? Seventy five percent rubbish operators.They just 'do' cinema projection as part of their over subscribed media studies course.For some reason,this looks good on their CV.The other twenty five percent really do make the grade and make fine operators who care for the medium they work with and progress through the industry,generally in to cinema management and beyond.
I have taught many brilliant trainee students,but much more of the rubbish variety-time wasters in my book.
When caring professionals like myself retire due to our age,then,and only then will DLP become more widely adopted because it requires less effort due to the nature of the beast.
But wait-- those students dedicated (the 25%)to the business will make a great living by learning how they are repaired.
In the meantime,god bless 35mm!
Barry Johnson
Chief Projectionist -an old one!

--------------------
Standard8 rules!!

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Andreas Eggeling
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posted December 11, 2006 09:12 AM

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Just met one of our projectionist at Albrecht-Discount (ALDI).
He told me that one lamp of the digital projectors have to be replaced after 3 months. And they are expensive 2000,- EUR each...... ooops .... [Eek!]

[Eek!]

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David Park
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posted December 12, 2006 03:58 AM

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Interesting topic here.
Well only seen one digital print so far in possibly the best equipt cinema in the UK, Pictureville, Bradford and it was a great shock to see how good the presentation was.

It seems to me the film distrubution is going over to digital for that side of the bussiness so I can't see the multi-plex haveing any choice but to have digital projector in each cinema of the complex. So the normal cinema surely will have to go digital with new release film as there will not be any 35mm prints.

I believe the cinemas here in UK are getting financial help for digital projection from the National Lottery etc. A credit came up before I saw the digital print of Oklahoma which was the film I refer above. Maybe someone in UK could explain this funding scheme to us?

--------------------
Regards,
David

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Barry Johnson
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posted December 12, 2006 05:50 AM

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Dave,
The Lottery funded DLP kit offer has a snag,theatres are required to accept more art house product in the deal.For an exhibitor,thats not good box office in most cases. [Frown]

[Frown]

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Standard8 rules!!

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David Park
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posted December 12, 2006 06:19 AM

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I think the Pictureville will fit those conditions OK with its varried programme. It is part of The National Media Museum.
http://www.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk/filmandimax/

--------------------
Regards,
David

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Graham Ritchie
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posted December 12, 2006 02:13 PM

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Its been about 6 years since I started working as a full time projectionst, and I remember then being told that within 10yrs it would be all video. To date it just hasn't happened, so far there has been little interest out here and who can blame them would you invest a large sum of money to install VP to screen some of the films now doing the rounds. In comparison you can buy the latest 35mm projector that will give you many years of reliable service, and that given a good print can project a large high quality picture at a fraction of the cost.

Its a shame that people are using poor projectionst skills etc to push the VP cause, would it not be better to employ and properly train the right type of person for the job in the first place. To give an example regarding film wear scratches etc we must have screened the first part of Lord Of The Rings hundreds of times before the film finished its run and was boxed away. Just prior to the release of the The Two Towers and as we still had the first part of LOR, in its box, for a short time we screened this print. The picture and digital sound was just as good as it was when we first ran it. There is no reason that a print properly looked after shouldn't last for a very long time. I think 35mm is still going to be around for sometime yet.

Graham.

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David Park
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posted December 12, 2006 04:25 PM

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It is the distribution costs that the films owners are wanting to cut as I understand it. The cost of the 35mm prints, transport etc.
With digital they just transmit it down a telephone wire and into a computer at the cinema I understand. Also the film owners can control when shown , number of times etc.

--------------------
Regards,
David

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Adrian Winchester
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posted December 12, 2006 04:44 PM

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From what I've heard from well-informed sources, there are still arguements going on with regard to what the definitive type of DP should be, so 35mm is liable to still be around for years in the UK.

I also think we need a debate about what digital projection should ideally look like. I expect the digital projector at the NFT is as good as you can get, but when I saw the 2005 'King Kong' there, I felt the picture was too sharp! It actually seemed 'unreal' that everything had such sharp edges, so I would have preferred the look of 35mm.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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David Park
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posted December 12, 2006 05:09 PM

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It is a Christie, other than that I do not know its specs.
It was supplied and installed only this year in May.
It is good.

--------------------
Regards,
David

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David Kilderry
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posted December 12, 2006 11:05 PM

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DCI compliant 2k Digital projection can be very good quality. 35mm projection done right is very good quality.

Digital projection is easier to operate than 35mm, but is much more expensive to sevice and maintain.

DCI compliant Digital projection equipment is still 5 times the cost of 35mm equipment, even with the several hundred recent installations.

Digital projection is cheaper for the distributors (major studios), 35mm is cheaper for cinemas.

Poor digital or 35mm projection quality is generally the result of bad operators, not the equipment. Just wait until some of the digital projectors are 2 years old with poorly aligned optical paths, worn out lamps, unqualified staff fiddling etc. Major cinema operators balk now at 35mm projection maintenance, they certainly will be unwilling to pay the much higher digital maintenance costs.

Believe me, bad digital projection is just as terrible as bad 35mm projection.

Xenon lamp costs alone are double that of 35mm for the same screen similarly illuminated with digital.

How do I know all of this? I was the national technical manager for one of the worlds largest cinema companies......and I started with 8mm!

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Winbert Hutahaean
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posted December 13, 2006 02:05 AM

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quote:
He told me that one lamp of the digital projectors have to be replaced after 3 months.

We also have to remember for a (or two) 35 mm projector/s with 5 shows (2 hours a show) a day then within 3 months (90 days) would have been 900 hours running times. Plus extra shhow during week end days will maket it to 1000 hours. We need to change the bulb too...and if it Xenon....it is also expensive!

quote:
... And they are expensive 2000,- EUR each...... ooops ....

I do remember 4 years ago 42" Plasma TV was priced US$ 10,000, today we can buy ti for US$ 1500.

So today's high price of a digital lamps is so relative. It can go down next 4-5 years.

I was going to say that (...hik...) no matter we love this flicking pictures it will be replaced by digital one day. I am not discouraging you pals, but the economic marketing strategy will say so.

We preserve what we love, we try to invite our son/daughter to enjoy the same, but if they prefer with those digital...hmmm...that is they era.

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Jose Artiles
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posted December 13, 2006 08:39 PM

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my opinion as a professional of the industry is that 35 mm will still alive for long time,ok the industry try to put digital as quick they can but all the test i made on digital projection with "serious" audience have the same results....a lot of the public say to me that the projection is very good but...looks unreal and too much "cold",i think the same everytime i have to made digital transfers of the original negatives.Two days ago i made a test projecting a copy of "cobra woman" in technicolor and i have to say that the film wins because.. after all digital is just tv,electronic image...quality tv but tv at last and of course technicolor in digital projections never exist,i can put more pal or ntsc colour or less to imitate the technicolor but the results nothing compares to film.I know that maybe a few of you, fellow collectors, don´t share the same feeling about my words but believe me,no everyone like´s digital projection ..therés a lot of people that hate it(myself included)because as i say before...is just tv not cinema.

--------------------
As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.

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Barry Johnson
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posted December 14, 2006 06:41 AM

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Jose:
Your reply sums it up brilliantly.
You are right-it IS just projected TV and little else.

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Standard8 rules!!

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Andreas Eggeling
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posted December 14, 2006 08:57 AM

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... another digital experience:

I look often the programme of the austrian tv station ORF ....
the southgermans love that free tv programme because they broadcast the newest episodes of some series like DH or C.S.I. without breaking commercials one week earlier as the german free tv stations with commercials breaks.... [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Sometimes movies are shown during the same time, so I can
choose with breaks or without.

but .... since three years we have new cable system installed
and I must say .... never have had more problems since
the cable are prepared for digital future....

ORF1: Every Simpson episode I can see the same mysterial phenomenon. If Bart is doing a fast move the picture have some pixel in it. Or ... ORF2 was kicked out of the analog system. And I have to bought a settop box to receive it again.
The sound is out of synchron now. And the picture looks
not real.

I grown up with ORF. During the days of analog antenna there
were only problems when there was a thunderstorm in the alps.

O.k. now I can receipt the programme of Oman too. They show
C.S.I. in english with arabian subtitles ... thats digital
future I was waiting for ...... [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

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John Clancy
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posted December 15, 2006 04:25 AM

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A few months ago I visited The Empire, Leicester Square to see 'Miami Vice'. Not the greatest film in the world but The Empire had recently got its independence back and this was just about the first major release the cinema had had for years. The Empire has long been my favourite cinema but with the dearth of material worth going to see and as I was about to leave London Miami Vice was simply an excuse for me to see this wonderful cinema again for many years.

I was amazed that in such a prestigious venue the film was obviously 'film' and not el cheapo video running off a RAID array. After the showing I spoke to a few of the staff and asked them to pass on my congratulations for sticking with real film. When one of them started apologizing that the video projector had broken down again I no doubt rather upset him by putting him right about the difference between what they call 'digital projection' and film projection.

'Miami Vice' was not the best print quality I have ever seen by a long shot but it was nice to enjoy the completely natural looking imagery provided by film and not have to endure the edge sharpened and at times unrealistic look of a computer screen.

--------------------
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Stuart Fyvie
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posted December 15, 2006 10:27 AM

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Er, John I think that you will find that 'Miami Vice'
was shot with a Viper HD camera.

Stuart

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John Clancy
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posted December 16, 2006 04:45 AM

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I did read that myself but it still had the look of a random grain film. Possibly because it was printed on film I suppose!!! Possibly also because a lot of the film was real and not cartooning unlike the recent Star Wars outing (which didn't look realistic at all).

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Stuart Fyvie
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posted December 16, 2006 09:55 AM

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The best 'Digital' images I have seen were of the restored 'Sound of Music'
from the 65mm negative and shown on a 4k sony projector at the Odeon
Leiscter Sq. It ran along Star wars 3 and that looked crap.

Stuart

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