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Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on September 20, 2003, 01:05 AM:
 
Well..........So, what happens when eventually our projectors go kaput and we have all this film we've invested in? There aren't any new projectors to be had and the 2nd hand ones on EBAY are becoming more scarce by the day. What do we all do?
 
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on September 20, 2003, 03:09 AM:
 
Well, of more concern are those engineers who know how to fix them. If anything kills it off it will be the inability to get repairs done.

I suspect there are lots of projectors stuck in attics and the like which have yet to be found. Many of those who could afford cine are still alive and have forgotten their projectors etc etc.

Eventually it will die- it has to- look at the average age of the cine buff ? I suspect around 60 although if you add in Ian of Perry's that would just nudge it to over 85!

Let's not look at the negatives- where are the positives? Well, for a start their is no shortage of film around. You can still buy bulbs for projectors. We have this forum and people will always try to help each other out. Most of us run more than one projector-many built like tanks.etc etc

Keep smiling it may never happen!

Tony
 
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 20, 2003, 06:42 AM:
 
Firstly on Tony`s reckoning even if Ian is well over 100, he`s a bloody Star.
Just had a bit of bad luck on a purchase on ebay and Ian has restored my faith and hope in the hobby.

On whether its dead I do think in some ways it is heading there.
In cine there were a lot of people who just liked the thrill of the big picture, some even found rewinding etc a chuff on, changing reels and all that, my favourite bits.
I think those people will fall away and many have already and we will be left with the battle hardened nit wits who just love the fiddle factor and that certain something that really is " The Cin`e Bug" some of us just will not shift it, once its there.
But with video projection now so affordable and superb for the moeny, you really have to admit ot that I think super 8 will continue to decline, its inevitable.Especially once people see the new machines vid proj wise and what they can do.
All of the dealers and CHC and Derann especially do sterling work but things always move and change.
I expect prices will start to drop, well they already have and they will come down further but I think the prognossis for dealers is still fairly good as say the price they pay for a feature at say £70 then sell on at £120 will be a £30 buy £70 sell on thing with us wallies left actually possibly buying more stuff as it becomes cheaper, we few, we happy few, we band of brothers etc etc.
So I think the future`s bright but the futures smaller. much smaller in terms of numbers in the hobby.
best Mark.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 20, 2003, 08:17 AM:
 
I've had a few thoughts on this subject. There is going to come a moment of truth when the stock of surviving projectors and cameras dwindle down to a few.

If there is still a lot of interest, the prices will sky rocket on E-bay. If enough of an opportunity is felt by someone with the means to do the work, there will be newly produced super-8 equipment. If not, That's All Folks!!

Right now, there is such a flood of used equipment that there is no point in tooling up for new stuff. I was vey happy to see CHC offer a really nice new projector last year, but by the same token I got a completely servicable Bolex SP-80 Special for $100 off E-bay, and I wasn't motivated to fork over $3,000. If the Bolex rose up over a grand I'd feel tempted to go for the new unit. (I am not saying my projector is just as good as the Fumeo, just that the Fumeo is not worth 30 times as much!)

A thought I've had recently Is that Moviestuff

http://www.moviestuff.tv/8mm_telecine.html

Does a nice little business building telecine units out of reconditioned GAF silent projectors. Couldn't they or someone like them choose a limited range of sound projectors, and recondition them as well. Maybe that way a lot of "shelf projectors" could return to business.
 
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 20, 2003, 08:29 AM:
 
I`ve often wondered whats the situation with Elmo or Fuji/Yelco, both did fine machines, fuji more recently on super. you can still buy new Elmo 16mm I see.
Are they still tooled up. Surely doing say a nice St180 but with a 150 watt lamp and two outs for stereo would be a far nore doable thing that the fumeo who were out of most film peoples reach even back then( that was worth a go though).
Maybe in japan there is still a warehouse full of the stuff.
Lets face it I think the only long term hope probably rests with us, can we get say a universal Elmo soundhead made reasonably.
I see Robin who tried with the Elmo spares for a while had little interest, and he did try.
best Mark.
Can the bauer soundheads be modifed to fit Elmo`s etc by the way.
best Mark.
 
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on September 20, 2003, 03:28 PM:
 
This has been said before - Like the poster collector and the tin-toy collector, will they ever die off? - No - What has yet to be published is a definitive edition on the repair and technical aspects of all projectors - No one has conceived this yet - To pass on information and know-how to the upcoming generation, is the only way to be certain that film collecting won't perish away - Not to worry, there will always be outlets for the collector - Shorty
 
Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on September 20, 2003, 04:58 PM:
 
I take it you folk all saw Phil Sheards (CHS) latest news letter?
For those who didn't let me pass on the news that Phil is going to get sell sound heads for Elmo's (porbably remanufactured) and he is also going to be able to get the motors rewound and presumably supply carbon brushes.
It's dealers like this that we sould now be looking to suuport because if we don't then he won't offer the service.

Kevin [Smile]
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 21, 2003, 02:06 PM:
 
I feel that as long as people want to collect and show 8mm films, they will be able to do so. The advent of computers and EBay has greatly increased the accessability of collectors to thousands of films and equipment throughout the World, as well as connecting with fellow collectors as we do here on this forum. People are still collecting 9.5mm films from the 1920's and successfully showing them on old Pathescope equipment from the 20's and 30's. Certainly Elmo and Eumig projectors are far better made than anything that Pathescope turned out, and can be expected to last a very long time. Of course 8mm film collecting always has been , and always will be a very small specialist market. The masses went to video long ago, because it is cheap and simple, and they have no interest in showmanship. But modern video equipment is probably more obsolete than 8mm equipment will ever be. Like computers, that DVD player, flat screen TV or expensive video projector that you buy today is practically without value 2 or 3 years from now, and used VHS and DVD's sell for pennies on the dollar. And even todays DVD'S will be obsolete in a few years when high definition DVD'S come out. In contrast, good cine equipment and films maintain or even increase in value as the years go by, and are a source of unending pleasure to the film collector.
 
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on September 22, 2003, 03:41 AM:
 
Bloody well said Paul.

I have a couple of video projectors. Both were great in their day (compared to anything else) but a few years later they're considered crap. If I purchase a new one today in three years time it's obsolete.

I have two Elmo GS-1200's and they are still the ultimate in terms of Super 8 film projection. Plus they're probably worth what I paid for them. By contrast my two video projectors are practically worthless.
 
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 22, 2003, 07:24 AM:
 
Hi john well I have to say I still rate video projection, however it will never dim the thrill of the real films etc for me.
It does ahve its uses even just for the films you can not get and never will on film like Zulu and mine bought second hand stands me at about £1 an hour for films watched up to now and decreasing with every watching. Also saves the projectors a bit too or I`d be wearing them all out.
But its not the same and with it you can get that half way though switch of yourself or the button syndrome.Not with lovely film.
I don`t know about others but often on a night I start to twitch and only fishing out the old elmo and having a good proper cine fiddle and film will put me right.
I`m going to make a bit more effort putting folks this way you come into contact with through ebay as people do find it by chance and once they have experiance the super 8 thing really like it.
I suppose there is a whole generation that just have never come accross it but often when they do it really lights them up, its a bit special as we all know.
I wonder how much it would say cost derann to put an add in a daily news paper 1/4 page or something, in say Home cinema magazine, might really work, maybe we should suggest it to Duncan.
I`d be happy to donate £5 or so to the cost.
Maybe we on the forum could chip in at least for a little box add fairly cheap i`m sure pointing people the way of the forum and mentioning super 8 and its still about and what it is etc.
I might give them a mail and ask how much it would cost.
Lets us all work together and may the hobby grow, its in our hands really, you never know it might really strike a chord with many people.
best Mark.

PS I`ve just emailed Home Cinema Choice a UK magazine and asked how much it is for a modest add and on the site too. i`m prepared to chance a bit of cash to help the hobby, be interesting to try and see how it goes.Asmall add extolling the pleasures etc of cine mentioning this site and the main dealer contacts.
What does everyone else think.
best Mark.
 
Posted by Tim Christian (Member # 48) on September 22, 2003, 07:54 AM:
 
First, let us be clear that any form of video based on domestic TV standards CAN NEVER equal the best of S8 projected. I stopped by a new local store specializing in 'Home Cinema' a couple of days ago. They had this demo of a 16x9 picture about 120cm across. What with the phosphor bars and the lines, it was like viewing through a five-bar gate. And the price! A Fumeo would be a cheap alternative. Then there's the cheeful thought that manufacturers are already working on the next generation to make today's expensive kit worthless.

Secondly, remember that film projectors are essentially very simple pieces of electro-mechanical equipment. Model engineering magazines in from the 1920s to the '50s regularly had articles on building your own projectors for 16/9.5 and even 8mm - sound and silent. Thus, it is straightforward for a skilled person with access to a well-equipped workshop to make spares for these machines.

It is evident from the cine forums that young people are coming into cine - and projecting it. Then they start buying movies ... .
 
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 22, 2003, 08:17 AM:
 
Thats very strange I watch mine 7 feet 4 inches wide and 16-17 feet away if I stand out side the small room door there is no structure to be seen at all and mine is only a modest machine, I think they obviously didn`t know what they were doing.
Take a look at a sonyHS10 propely set up. video projection is now very good and I thin its a great complimant to our hobby.
Its easy to dismiss it in a hobby defensive sort of way but those that love this hobby will stay and those that are touched by it for the first time and feel the magic like we do with join us and stay i`m sure.

By the way I had a reply from the magazine and on line its very expensive so I suggested would they put up an article on the hobby, worth a try.
best Mark.
 
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on September 22, 2003, 12:38 PM:
 
Ironic really but s8 has introduced me to video projection and like Mark I find the image quite acceptable considering the limitations. The sound, however, is quite fantastic and this for me, together with the relative cost and availability of new material is where video wins.
Then there is also no cleaning no worrying about damage to film, quicker set up / take down etc etc.

Sure s8 has the feel, the showmanship and the joy of wondering how they can make such a great looking picture from such a small frame. There is no doubt that the sound and look of a B/W film running through the Elmo out does the VP and DVD equivalent every time.

I don't however buy into the notion that greater advertising of this hobby will attract that many people. I do support the idea and have Mark's fiver in my hand since we can but try.

Please don't get me wrong. I have really enjoyed playing with s8 in the last 12 months but long term I still don't see a future.

Tony [Frown]
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 22, 2003, 01:51 PM:
 
Hmmm....

I disagree (respectfully, of course). Everytime I mention Super-8 and break through the fog of it not being video, I get a shocked reaction something like "They still make that?".

What we do is almost a secret, and there are secrets within secrets. For example, I returned to Super-8 as a film maker about 3 years ago (After the pleasant shock of finding out Kodak still made film.), and was surfing the 'net for a year and a half afterwards hot on the trail of information about it before I found out about the collecting end of Super-8 and that there were even companies still making films. (I found the concept of features on Super-8 absolutely mind-boggling!)

The question is if more people knew, how many more people would join up, and what kind of commercial opportunities might develop for more goods and services?

How many people are out there thinking warmly about the good old days when they used Super-8, not realizing those days never really ended? How many people who don't remember it who would love it if they knew about it?

Strength in Numbers!

How much equipment is sitting dusty in closets that could be doing it's thing, or getting tossed in the trash because it's not deemed worthy of a place in a garage sale?

(A friend at work recently trashed an entire R8 settup before I found out!)

[ September 22, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]
 
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on September 22, 2003, 05:32 PM:
 
Steve,

I think you hit the nail on the head. It seems that the majority of those getting involved with s8 again were involved when it was in its hey day. They now have the disposable income to enjoy it (in many cases). There are a few exceptions (I include myself in this!!).

Anyway, this is all too down beat for my liking.

Why worry about it anyway? What good will it do? Let's just enjoy it!!

And smile!

Tony [Smile] [Big Grin] [Wink]
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 22, 2003, 06:47 PM:
 
...and this time I agree (still respectfully),especially that we need to stop living under the cloud of the "coming end". As I said, I came back into Super-8 3 years ago. At the time I thought I'd buy 5 rolls of film, make maybe one movie and then the curtain would come down on the whole gauge (I gave it maybe a year.)

I'm having a great time. I have a sound projector now and I'm buying more films and making more (and better)films than ever. I'm tired of worrying about what may happen 3 years or 10 down the road. I just want to enjoy what we have today.

PS Over dinner in about 1979, my Uncle told me that the end was coming in "2 or 3 years". I disagreed
 
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on September 22, 2003, 07:09 PM:
 
All this pessimism makes me feel like I should be getting into a hobby with a real future- vinyl record collecting.
Doug
 
Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on September 26, 2003, 01:33 AM:
 
I may start up my pre-recorded Reel-To-Reel tape collection again. I still have all my Herb Alpert reel-to-reel tapes somewhere here in the house. The player is in the closet and I know when I used it 2 years ago, it was still working fine.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 26, 2003, 09:54 PM:
 
I have a friend that collects Lionel standard gauge trains, which haven't been manufactured since the 1930s, yet they keep those trains going.

(quite an impressive sight and sound at full speed, I might add)

Maybe this is a good example for us Super-8 folks
 
Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on September 26, 2003, 10:27 PM:
 
Steve,

FWIW Lionel is still in business and still making trains. You can examine their catalog on line. Stuff ain't cheap. They also own American Flyer "S" gauge as well. As in any popular hobby there are resources for parts and repairs.

I imagine it'll be the same with Super8. There are lots and lots of projectors out there in cupboards and closets and eventually they'll be mined for parts. The biggest problem I see is projection lamps. The lamp for the Kodak Sound 8 is an endangered species as is the DAR lamp for the old 8mm Bell & Howell Filmo projectors. It may take mechanical revision to keep some projectors going and some others make beautiful display pieces.

At some point, someone will find a way to modify tape heads to use them in projectors, but lamps will be a constant problem.

John
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 27, 2003, 06:04 AM:
 
True, but not really the same company (Actually, a good example because Lionel trains remained so popular that somebody revived a dead company to serve that market.) My friend can still buy spare parts. He pays dearly for them, just like we may someday.

However,
You've hit the exact point: Popularity. If there is enough interest in Super-8, people will take it on as a business. This is one of the reasons we need to spread the word.

Just the fact that we still have companies like Derann and CHC apparently doing very well is a good sign, and it's companies like these that will take on the technical issues in order to preserve their livelihoods.
 
Posted by Trevor Adams (Member # 42) on September 27, 2003, 06:25 AM:
 
If you feel a bit down or anxious about the future of super 8mm-indulge in a bit of diversification!Get stuck into some obsolete 9.5mm gear,or,start collecting ancient toy hand crankers.Be a bit surprised at the prices you can buy some of this stuff for. I'm surrounded by wonderful mechanical/optical devices(called junk by my better half!!) The smallest gauge I have is 4.75mm.Trev
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 27, 2003, 09:23 AM:
 
Wow!, I've never even heard of 4.75mm! What do you have?
 
Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on September 27, 2003, 11:19 AM:
 
I think super-8 will be around well past our life times. It has so many different appeals to so many different kinds of people, both collectors and film makers. The simple fact that it has lasted this long is proof. Of course, it will never be where it was in the 60's and 70's, but still profitable to dealers who produce good product.

I agree with the idea of producing new parts to older projectors. I think this is where the money will be in the near future, as our more sensitive machine parts start to go bad (since most of us don't have 3 or 4 thousand bucks to put into a new projector right now).

I have no doubt that as we get desparate, we will find ways to keep these work-horses going.

And yes- WE MUST SUPPORT THOSE COMPANIES OUT THERE THAT ARE PUTTING THIER TIME AND MONEY ON THE LINE TO PRODUCE MATERIAL FOR US SUPER 8 COLLECTORS!!! If you cant afford to spend alot on the hobby, at least pick up a trailer or cartoon or something. Anything. [Smile] Nick.
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 27, 2003, 01:01 PM:
 
Steve,
I think the 4.75mm film that Trev is referring to is the ill fated Pathescope Duplex system. Here is some info on this fascinating concept, which unfortunately was a commercial failure.
http://www.pathescope.freeserve.co.uk/Monaco/pathe4_75.html
I like to call it "Pathescope's Vistavision", as the film runs horizontally through the projector, just as in Paramount's 35mm system. Trevor is very lucky indeed to posess one of these machines. Too bad he lives way down in New Zealand or he could give us a demo!
 
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on September 27, 2003, 07:52 PM:
 
I think Brad raises an excellent point. And this isn't "gloom and doom." It's just a reality that we all must face -- we have to quit assuming that our 25+ year-old projectors will always be around (no matter how well maintained). Unfortunately, we don't have many (if any) options when it comes to new projectors, but if we really do care about the longevity of the hobby, we have to quit retreating to the false sanctuary of old projectors that seem to be "working fine now" (while holding our breath). I still don't understand why efforts to produce new projectors (e.g., the Fumeo) was met with such criticism. Sure, it was an expensive proposition and required a leap of faith. But are 20-30 year old projectors really a better alternative? I just don't get it. We are only ensuring the eventually "death" of our hobby if we keep the mentality that "Hey, why should I worry? -- I have a (25-year old) GS 1200."

That being said, I'm probably enjoying the hobby more today than during the "halycon days" of the 1970s. And I truly want this hobby to be around at least as long as I'm alive. That's why I'm concerned that we as collectors tend to pass off very real concerns about our old projectors grinding to a halt as "gloom and doom." (For the record, I use a ST 1200 from the mid-1970s). I totally agree with the sentiment of "let's enjoy the hobby today," but let's also try to ensure its longevity.

And I second the gentleman -- let's support the dealers out there who are producing new releases!!!
 
Posted by Trevor Adams (Member # 42) on September 27, 2003, 11:44 PM:
 
Hi Paul,you are absolutely spot on.I have a Pathe Monaco 4.75mm/9.5mm projector and it is truely a fascinating machine.
I've been a long time hoarder of centre sprocket gear and film.I only have one small spool of 4.75mm home movie.There were no commercial prints in this gauge.I understand Monaco's are pretty hard to come by. Trev
 
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on September 28, 2003, 02:19 PM:
 
Look, I am only 12 months into this hobby and yet if I read this thread I might as well just sell up now?

Yes support the dealers-they are great (esp Ian of Perry's) (that's another tenner you owe me!)- and support each other and yes let's go for publicity. But be realistic, this is not going to expand rapidly it is just too expensive and too high risk for main stream.

I really must thank Mark Todd, Kevin Faulkner, Mike Peckham, Trevor Adams, John Clancy and many many others for the time they have give in reply to questions.

Once again I say let us not dwell on what could be but on what can be done to sustain the s8 world we live in.
 
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on September 28, 2003, 04:48 PM:
 
I still say that all will be well in this area; considering the thousands of 16mm collectors - Now does anyone think for one minute that they are going to allow their magnificent Elmos to rust, and not enjoy an IB-Tech of "The Searchers"?, for example - No sir! - There will always be enough dedicated people interested in the tech-end of our hobby, even ourselves in learning, to sustain amd maintain first eschelon care of our happiness - Again, Shorty
 
Posted by Tim Christian (Member # 48) on September 28, 2003, 05:09 PM:
 
Just a thought. There is a lot of equipment out there: much of it little used. There are many fewer S8 enthusiasts now than there were home movie makers 20 years ago. Thus, there is plenty of gear to go around. Buy a few spare projectors, service them (clean, lubricate, get/make a few spare belts, watch the lamp supply - lay in spares if necessary); with sound projectors, fire them up a couple of times a year to keep the electrolytics in the amplifiers formed. If projectors last 25 years in service, then two or three good spares will keep you going a lifetime!
 
Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on November 08, 2003, 01:02 AM:
 
What are "electrolytics"? Just curious.....
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 08, 2003, 08:57 AM:
 
AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIGH!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry, seeing this thread come back to the top just did that to me!!)

But, Electrolytics are large capacitors very often used in power supply circuits and as coupling capacitors in audio amps.

Please!! No more doom and gloom!!
 
Posted by Chris Cottrill (Member # 47) on November 13, 2003, 08:04 PM:
 
I agree the bad news is on the equipment end but that may be changing with Phil Sheard (God Bless Him).
THE GOOD NEWS is definitely on the film end -- Phil's prints are getting better and better. Just bought the full length THE MUMMY from Steve Osborne and what a treat! Great black & white picture and sound with english titles no less. ALSO -- I remember the 70s and what a great flood of titles there were -- but a lot of dupey looking prints from the manufacturers too. Today's prints are consistently good quality. So there is much good news to go around. My only REAL disappointment is the lack of sound film stock for Super-8 shooters like me. But from the collector's viewpoint, I see nothing to complain about.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 13, 2003, 08:43 PM:
 
Hey, Chris!

Welcome aboard! I've always enjoyed your website:

http://www.omniprints.com/super8/

(Thought I'd share it with the group)
 
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 13, 2003, 10:52 PM:
 
Personally I do think that super 8 is heading in the direction of the do-do bird in the not too distant future.

I started collecting 16mm in the 1980s, but only started collecting super 8 two years ago. I bought a Xenon GS-1200, and was pretty happy that I could get a lot of titles on super 8 that were just impossible to find on 16mm.

Then, earlier this year, I got a DLP projector and did some A/B tests -- and with all due respect, a well-mastered DVD on a good DLP projector will beat super 8 any time (on a Xenon GS). 16mm is another story - I still prefer a nice 16mm print to a DVD. But, after seeing the difference, it occured to me that paying $20 for a DVD that has a picture that is nicer than a several hundred $ super 8 print is largely preferable. Not to mention the dolby digital surround sound....

So I decided to get out of super 8, and stick with 16mm and DVD/DLP for things that I couldn't find on 16mm.

And the process of selling off my super 8 prints has convinced me that the super 8 format is in a downward death spiral. Prints that I bought less than a year ago, I can't get anything close to what a paid for them (used)- I've taken a loss on almost every print I've sold - sometimes to the tune of several hundred $$. This has never happened to me in 16mm -- prices on nice prints of "A" titles have gone up over time, not down..... I think the reason is simple supply and demand - there is less and less demand for super 8 prints, therefore the prices drop.
 
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 14, 2003, 02:29 AM:
 
Well thanks very much for posting that Steve. I'm sure we all feel much better now.

So which DLP are you using? The only one I've seen upon which a good DVD can rival a good Super 8 costs in excess of £4,000 and even then you have to put up with the dreaded rainbow effect which once seen you can't take your eyes off. LCD has the dust problem but I'd rather put up with that than that soddin' rainbow. For £5,000 it is possible to buy an LCD producing excellent imagery. However, the natural filmic look is still lacking much of the time. And it's largely a boring, non-involving pastime. Film is a real hobby.

No, give me Super 8 ahead of video projection any time. And let's face it modern Super 8 is very often superior to 16mm when it was at its height 20 years ago. Amazing print quality, tactile, mechanical projectors, cleaning the films, re-recording your prints, fiddling with the lenses on the projectors to improve the picture etc. etc. etc.. And on top of that the film collectors conventions where we can all get together and enjoy a nostalgic, amazing hobby. There is so much to film collecting which video will never enjoy. So can we all stop trying to promote junking Super 8 on this forum. I'd rather we sung its praises.

And to reiterate my opinion of my own video projectors - they were great when initially released. They also retailed at vast sums of money. Now they are practically worthless - I expect I could just about give them away. My GS-1200's (three of 'em) are probably worth as much as I paid for them.

Today I'm going to be contacting Phil Sheard as he now has full length Super 8 prints of 'Spider-man' in stock. I already have the DVD which I've video projected and enjoyed very much. However, it's not film and I'm only too happy to hand over a wadge of notes to someone willing to take the financial risk of making it available to us. I'd be very happy if a few others on this forum supported him too although I realize the cost of features are beyond many of us. He does however have many other excellent recent releases (as do Derann). Without our support these releases will not continue.
 
Posted by Tim Christian (Member # 48) on November 14, 2003, 04:55 AM:
 
Steve's praise for dvd and lcd technology sounds a little desperate - almost an attempt to justify spending a large amount of money without a major benefit.

The term 'better' is rather vague. Without wishing to re-open a debate that has been pursued on Super8filmshooting

for years, it is necessary to differentiate between sharpness and detail. Edge enhancement can make a video picture look sharper than a film picture, but it is not possible for a picture generated using existing TV broadcast standard equipment to approach the level of detail that Super 8 film is capable of. In any case, the full potential of Super 8 is seldom fully realized in commercial prints.

The cost of replacing my own 8mm facilities for both making and showing films with 'leading edge' technology would probably exceed what I have paid for both them and my film collection. Even then, I would have a tiger by the tail. Modern gadgets become obsolescent so quickly: even as you spend your money, somewhere someone is working on the next generation of moneyspinners. My reaction to finding that new dvds wouldn't play on my old player due to lack of memory would not be printable here. Having never bought one, I've been spared that. In any case, much of the footage that interests me isn't available on either video or dvd.

Of course S8 will dwindle - like every other technology. But it probably won't disappear while I am able to enjoy it. Anyway, steam engines, biplane aircraft and vinyl records are still made: they may be niche markets - but they are still going.
 
Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on November 14, 2003, 06:09 AM:
 
Funny. I was just looking through an issue of 'Movie Maker'from August 1980 and exactly the same thing was being discussed there.

Mike.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 14, 2003, 08:53 AM:
 
It's kind of funny, I never think of DVD replacing Super-8 because to me they don't fill the same purpose. DVD is a machine under the TV set that I use when I want to lay on the couch and watch a movie. Super-8 is my hobby, which involves making and collecting films and collecting and repairing (and enhancing sometimes)equipment and then using it all together to put on shows.

DVD is wonderful for it's purpose, it is no fuss, no muss and self contained. As a hobby it just doesn't work for me. (Appologies to those for whom it does!)

I have a small collection of miniature steam engines. I fill the boiler, I lubricate the engine, I fuel it and light the fire. The steam comes up, the piston moves and the flywheel spins. Replacing Super-8 with DVD would be like replacing my engines with a battery and an electric motor. The results are the same, but the process is the whole point.

I super-8 doomed? Ultimately, yes. Ultimately, so is DVD, ourselves, our societies, the planet and perhaps the universe. However, if we spend our whole lives dwelling on the coming end we will miss the chance to enjoy life, and even this nice little corner of it called Super-8.

(I really hate this thread.)
 
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 14, 2003, 09:24 AM:
 
I've been collecting 16mm films for 15 years and have over 3000 titles -- I'm a film collector first and foremost, and quality is very important to me.

I've always found super 8 to be inferior to 16mm -- granted a nice super 8 print looks better than a so-so 16mm print, but you've only got 1/4 the surface area -- do the math.

John: I use a Sharp PG-M20x run from a computer source (not a DVD player). The image is brighter and sharper than any of my super 8 prints ever were. I could never get the focus on the super 8 to be as clear as I wanted, and the image was always quite dim (even on a Xenon GS).

I ran DVD and super 8 side by side and asked several other film collector friends their opinion, and everyone agreed that DVDs looked better (or at very least the same.

You are right that a ELMO GS projector holds it's value -- but I said that the price of used films is dropping, not the price of high end projectors. If you look at the over all cost - even if you assume that the video projector is a throw away item, the DVDs are so ridiculously cheap that you can have 20+ movies for the price of one super 8 feature. So - it's clearly a better choice for films that you don't watch often -- and of course you can rent a dvd of a film that you only want to see once -- try finding a place to rent a film print these days....

To Tim -- I think you are the one who sounds desperate - not me. I'm not trying to justify anything - just pointing out what I've seen. I've spent about $2000 for the projector, and maybe $2000 more for all of the DVDs that I have. That's nothing compared with what I've got sunk into 16mm films. I definitely like 16mm film better than projected DVDs, I also like dealing with film - it's more real than a bunch of bits on a piece of plastic. But in my case, I got into super 8 to be able to see titles projected that I couldn't get on 16mm. The DVDs can now serve that purpose. To me, that is a major benefit.

BTW - The term "better" is subjective - not vague.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 14, 2003, 10:50 AM:
 
All due respect Mr. Sigel,

But if you don't enjoy Super-8 anymore, please don't rain on our parade.

-Just please keep your S-8 stuff in circulation by selling it to us!

Personally, I don't do Super-8 solely for the image quality, and frankly I find watching a feature length Super-8 film to be a real pain. It's just something I enjoy, and an escape from other things I sometimes don't.

When that someday comes and It's gone for good, I'll miss it! For now, I'll just enjoy it.
 
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 14, 2003, 11:06 AM:
 
Mr Klare: (my goodness, such formality)

I've been trying to sell my super 8 -- no one wants a lot of it -- or if they do want it, they only want to pay a fraction of what it cost me, or they agree to buy it and never send the money. I'd be happy to send you the list of what I have left.

And as for raining on your parade -- are you saying that I shouldn't express my opinion because it might bruise your sensibilities? The question on this thread was whether super 8 has much of a life span left -- the answer, in my opinion, is that while it will never go away entirely as a hobby, there are going to be fewer and fewer people getting into it, and more and more people getting out of it. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 14, 2003, 11:22 AM:
 
I call it courtesy, and I'm sticking with it because I hate the flaming I often see in these discussion groups (...and because I just like courteous people), and I don't want to see this discussion heading that way.

I don't have a gripe with you or your point of view, and you are right that it is on topic in this thread. I just don't think the entire topic really belongs here in the first place.

I also see no end to this thread, other than years from now when the end really is at hand somebody writes "See!, Told you!"

I think I must be trying to buy the wrong stuff, lately I've been in some real battles on E-bay! (Lost two the other night!)
 
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 14, 2003, 03:51 PM:
 
I think those that will do film still, will do film still whatever is said.
I like the way on efilm they were brave enough to open a dvd vid proj forum as well as many of us do both now.
I actually hope that it brings many second hand films down a little and they get cheaper, my reason for this is not to see people loose cash, though I personally usually do on resale but that when newbies come to the hobby they see that they can get a foot on the ladder and if prices stay very high by comparrison with other mediums people will say stuff it and we`ll just be left with a small band of die hards.
Selling films for as much as you can is self defeating in the hobby sense then. And prices kept high may have a hobby negative effect.
When I suggested doing an add about super 8 and an article in something like home cinema there wasn`t much interest at all so didn`t bother as didn`t seem people supported it.
We have to be realistic that film use, real film is going to decline to some degree and already people who release sell the shorts best to a certain interest group.
I have to a agree wholeheartedly with Steven about video projection, mine is only simple s,vhs out of the back of a cheap DVD player to a 4 or 5 years old sony CS2 and I think its stunning. You have to be realistic that you can now get say an epsom for £800 or less with three years cover that does a brilliant job, Plug it straight into the DVD player get some friends round and bobs your uncle, the big screen is the big screen to most people regardless of whats trundling along behind it, people may show a bit of interest in a cine machine but it will rarely if ever prove to be a seed in the hobby.
Theres an awful lot to doing both and as both super 8 film producers in the UK sell video projection equipment and dvd`s etc it speaks for itself.
Its all to easy to get insular and defensive but theres no need, for those who want to there will always be enough super 8 film around for a good while into the future and plenty of projectors, just take a look on Germany`s ebay or the states and there tons of the stuff about.
For me now its much more of a transient thing for me in film, I buy in, watch and enjoy then mainly move it on( mainly due to the expanding family), things I really like I get on DVD as back up or if I sell films on I still have it.
DVD projection opens up a whole new world of different and interesting films you could never hope to have a small fraction of on film, even if you could affording it would be prohibitive.
So anyway after all of that if you love film don`t panic but also don`t write of other mediums to complement the big picture experiance and DVD`s will probably be around for as long as super 8 will have been as well, they are still round and go round and contain lovely images just like our beloved films, its all the same thing really.Film is just a medium too.
best Mark.
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 14, 2003, 07:17 PM:
 
Hi Steven (Sigel),
You are absolutely correct that a 16mm print will always be better than a S8 print... about 4x better, all things being equal. But Super 8 has something which 16mm has never had, or never will have, namely superb quality stereo sound. To see a superb S8 Cinemascope print, such as "Grease", projected on an 8ft screen, with a stereo magnetic track which has been redubbed from DVD, is in my opinion, a far better movie experience than viewing the same film as a 16mm print with only mono sound from the inferior quality 16mm optical sound track.
I cannot comment on front projected DVD as I do not posess one, but I can say that the back projected large box TV'S that I have seen are dreadful. Also it should be obvious to all, that you cannot justify film collecting on the base of cost comparison with DVD. You collect S8 for the joy of the hobby, as John points out. I watch new DVD'S almost every night.... from Blockbuster, but I buy very few. Try selling them if you think you are losing money selling films. I had a garage sale last week and had a hard time getting $2.00 for mint DVD'S or $1.00 for VHS tapes, whereas old Universal 400 footers are getting 30, 40, or $50.00 each on EBay. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching a good DVD movie on my superb Sony flatscreen TV, but its nowhere near the fun of working with Super 8 equipment and films.
And my family and friends love to come over for a Super 8 movie night- it really is a special occasion for all, and I always get positive feedback. So maybe ,Steven, you are being a little too hard on Super 8. Let's revisit your position ,say 10 years from now, when all your current DVD projection equipment and DVD's will be obsolete, and the GS1200'S will still be projecting great super 8 films to appreciative audiences!
 
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on November 15, 2003, 01:20 AM:
 
Well, I guess we could all sit and wonder when it will all end, but what is the point? Most likely these films and the projectors will outlast us even!
I know that I really like seeing films on DVD on a large flat screen plasma monitor. But I don't know why...but I get Esctatic when I hear of a new release on Super 8! It really defies logic!
Super 8 costs more, isn't as sharp at times, colors are off, and the machines are a pain to keep in top condition.
But....I went and did a screening of Spaceballs a few weeks back. I have tried and tried to watch the DVD for years but never had the inclination. But I screened Spaceballs for a few friends and it was great! I laughed out loud!
And even when I am alone, I watched my pink version of "Saturday Night Fever" and it was so INVOLVING. So different and visceral than DVD's could ever be for me.
I guess it is like the difference between Vinyl and CD's.
I have been hooked since I was 11 and I know I will still be looking for that elusive print, that super califragilistic projector when I am an old man. And an added plus? I film in Super 8 and everyone who has seen themselves on Super 8 just love it. So different than Video! Let's face it guys and gals (are there any gals here?) we are all romantics that just need to hear that click and clack. We are the Toto's of the world. (Cinema Paradiso kid).
And that is what keeps us young!
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 16, 2003, 08:14 AM:
 
Alan,
I could not agree more. We are all on this Forum because we love showing Super 8 films, and working with Super 8 equipment....for whatever reason. Comparing it to Video is like comparing apples and oranges. I just wish those collectors who have recently aquired the (short term) novelty of a Video projector , would avoid negative comments about super 8, as if all the rest of us were living in the dark ages. We have seen video projection and still want to collect and show Super 8 films, thank you very much!
 
Posted by D'Arcy More (Member # 50) on November 16, 2003, 09:30 AM:
 
I too have been collecting since childhood and I just turned 40 this year. While all of my other friends were trying to keep up with the latest technology (Is that Beta or VHS? Laserdisc or DVD?) I have continued to stick with film. Had a discussion with a pal the other night and told him since VHS has been on the market I have honestly only purchased about 2-3 video tapes in my life and never did the switch or even cared to support the medium. (I've been known to be a bit of a stubborn fella) I have a pal of mine down in Ohio who can't even give away some of this VHS collection has he tries to update his DVD collection. I betcha some of the VHS that he has purchased years back, he never even watched! I've had 16mm collectors snicker at me when I mention super 8 and they turn their noses up at it. I ignore them cuz I am collecting for ME and I don't have to answer to anyone's ridicules. When my film fan friends come over and see Rathbone on the big screen about to solve another Holmes Mystery they love the "Romance Of The Reel". They are fond of the fussiness with me threading the projector, getting the image in focus and then dimming the lights. It's part of the presentation. It adds to the flavour of film.

D'Arcy [Cool]
 
Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on November 17, 2003, 12:19 AM:
 
The spirit of collecting will keep it alive. It's like 78 rpm phonograph records. Sure 78s on CDs sound great, but they're only re-releases and usually remixed to suit what some engineer thinks the general public would enjoy. The very nature of collecting requires all original format to take that trip back in time. It's an escape from the the reality of the present. I watch film, listen to Louis Jordan on 78s, and read 1944 Popular Science. Not all at the same time of course. Hmmm.....that gives me an idea. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Tim Christian (Member # 48) on November 17, 2003, 02:43 AM:
 
In terms of sheer reality (presence) I don't think that the last generation vinyl 78s could be bettered.!

Originality is one reason I collect newsreel on film. The same images with a contemporary comentary (usual facetious) loses some of the essential atmosphere. For example, Movietone newsreel of the Hindenburg makes it clear that in 1936 western journalists regarded the nazis as a joke. No wonder Churchill had so much trouble getting them taken seriously.
 
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 17, 2003, 02:49 AM:
 
Well, I must say, as much as I was extremely p*ssed off Steve Sigel came onto this thread and (in so many words) asked "why are you people on this forum perservering with Super 8 when video projection is better?" it certainly started a discussion, so thanks for that Steve. Hopefully now you understand why some of us are into Super 8. You've probably now realized getting rid of your projector was a bit mistake so I suggest to help Steve out we all keep a look out for a nice Elmo GS-1200 Xenon for him so he can undo this mistake.

Can't wait until you get back into the world of Super 8 Steve.
 
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on November 17, 2003, 06:31 AM:
 
JC, it is great to see everyone getting so passionate about the old s8. Unlike many of you I came to this hobby a year back by accident.

What Steven says is true of course and it defies logic to collect s8 or 16mm or anything else.

Oh what the heck, it is quite good fun and I have met some nice people.

Tony
 
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 17, 2003, 08:56 AM:
 
To John -- That's not what I said -- I simply said that I thought super 8 was being seriously impacted by DVD/DLP projection. This is a fact (ask any film dealer), and I wonder why people here seem to not want to hear about it -- It seems like I've been told in not so many words to "shut up and go away". Isn't this forum for discussion of super 8?

Sorry John, I'm not planning to buy another GS ... But I have an ST-1200 and a Sankyo 800 which I plan to hang onto in case I run across any super 8 prints that I want to screen....

Tony -- I don't think it defies logic to collect films -- it all depends on why you collect them. I collect 16mm film as my main collection - because I like film, but got into super 8 to be able to see things projected on a big screen that I couldn't get on 16mm -- so the super 8 for me was just a stop-gap to begin with. I'm planning to keep on collecting 16mm for a long time (although even here, I've been getting rid of my inferior prints) - just like I keep colleting 78 RPM records and Edison Cylinders.
 


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