This is topic DERANN AND STEVE OSBORNE in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on June 12, 2009, 07:39 AM:
Just got off the phone with Steve Osborne of the Reel Image. As you know, he handles product from Derann and other distributors. He obtains films for us collectors in the U.S....and handles returns and shipping for defective prints...thus saving us money and hassles. HOWEVER, he has just told me that Derann is no longer offering him the small discount on films he sells here. He says he makes only a dollar or two already on shorts and trailers from England. He distributes them to make them available easily to American customers. He has told Derann that unless they can grant him the discount that , he, as a dealer, has gotten for many years, he will have to stop handling their product. This would be a blow for many of collectors in the U.S. Yes, we can order direct from Derann, but if there are defective prints, we would be paying the considerable shipping to return them...and we wouldn't have the pull that Steve has, since he orders thousands of dollars worth of films at a time for his customers. I'm therefore urging my U.S. collectors who buy through Steve for the convenience and price to email Derann and ask them to reverse their decision on his dealer discount. thanks.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 12, 2009, 09:41 AM:
I agree Gary. Steve Osbourne has been a god-send for many of us US collectors.
Personally, I think this is just Derann attempting to put the "screws" on Steve to see if he'll budge and give in. Derann, in this day and age, even though it's hard enough to move prints, really can't afford to loose a distributor of thier films. As far as I know, that would leave "Dave Thomas Films" as the sole distributor in America, and his prices are higher than Steve's.
... and Steve does so much more for the collector!
Derann must be feeling the pressure as well. They're film magazine is on the brink of extinction, and now this. They no doubt have to cinch in they're collective "belts" a notch or two, to make ends meet.
However, if I was Steve, I wouldn't give in. Besides, with a profit margin of only a dollar or so; you take that away, where is the incentive to sell Derann materials? None. Derann must take this into account.
I know that Steve, quite frankly is nowhere near making a killing on all of his film stuff. If you compare how many services, advice and even freebies he sends out, he's way in the hole, profit wise.
Stand your ground Steve!
Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on June 12, 2009, 10:33 AM:
Steve is a great guy, and I understand his delimma, as well as Derann's. But in reality, Derann is probably only making a very small profit from super 8, so they honestly may not be able to offer a discount anymore.
What would be more likely, would be for Steve to raise his prices on new Derann products, so he can continue to offer us in the USA the convenience of buying through him, and still make a small profit. The thing about super 8 is, if its something I want, I don't mind paying a little extra.
I think if collectors want to see new, fresh super 8 prints in the future, we have to be willing to go with inflation.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 12, 2009, 11:58 AM:
Really, thats not a bad idea James, (Steve, raising his price slightly), unless Steve has "pushed the envelope" as much as he can.
It should be interesting as to what happens.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 12, 2009, 01:15 PM:
Weren't you thinking about getting into production of S8 prints over there?
If Derann (via Steve Osbourne) pull out there's an opportunity for ya!!
Think outside the box, sir.
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on June 12, 2009, 01:48 PM:
What if (and I've suggested it to Gary), Derann were to open an American subsidiary here? With lab and technicians on the spot to aid collectors. If so, I say Steve should manage it, and I'd definitely forward an application to work with him, no foolin' - I feel we have plenty of collectors alike to warrant a Derann USA outlet - Please let Steve continue maintaining and catering to the loyal collector, Derann - From Shorty
Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on June 12, 2009, 01:58 PM:
I don't think opening up a lab here is feasible. The negs would have to be shipped back and forth ..plus labs all over this country and Europe are folding up...or have already gone. The capital investment would never be paid back on the strenght of super 8 film sales. It's just not going to happen.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 12, 2009, 02:04 PM:
I agree - in fact I'm getting the feeling that the days of new Super 8 product are numbered, even in the UK here. Just a hunch.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 12, 2009, 03:17 PM:
I think your right , Micheal.
Its not that there isn't a market for Super 8, I think it's the brains behind the marketing. We saw in two of Derann's big releases some bad choices.
I must preface this in saying that this is my opinion.
For instance, "End of Days". An Arnold film that basically bombed in the theaters, (for the most part, don't know all the overseas totals), yet it got a 600ft release.
The last feature release, "Master and Commander". While there are a goodly number of UK buyers for a "Britian rules the seas" style picture ...
(PLEASE NOTE: there is no anti UK bias intended)
It wasn't a "international Friendly" picture. It did well in some areas, but not others. I think the evidence of this is how many DVD copies I see all over the place in garage sales, flea markets and pawn shops.
Its really very sad, and I don't laugh about it. In a business where the die-hard customers are the only ones that REALLY keep your business afloat, that you don't really release to they're desires, and I haven't seen that for awhile.
I think another problem, (especially with Derann) is that, while Derann released incredible prints of Disney features; with a limited number of people collecting Super 8 anyhow, it really would be a rather short time before all of those who are willing to shell out a good deal of money for a new feature, dry up.
Except for us romantic fools, there won't be many more Super 8 releases impending. I am still weighing my options. Once I get my trailer I just received from DINO conditioned with Camphor, it is DEFINITELY going to be my trailer release, if I was to ever release trailers, (it is a whopping five minutes long!).
To be honest, when I release my advert reels (or one 400ft reel, which I would honestly rather do), they will be limited release, unless a much bigger market for them is out there, which I doubt.
I wouldn't be surprised if by the time I get these released on Super 8, they will have already released primo collections of them on DVD. As of right now, no one has, (at least, not high quality releases.
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on June 12, 2009, 03:58 PM:
I know the realities, still if some industry could back the idea of a lab (Kodak), negs have to circulate from England to here anyway, so why not the reverse as an export procedure? It's not impossible, nor is it feasible, but I'm a strong proponent to the idea of 'Why not?' - We love our films, then there's a way - Shorty
Posted by Lance Alspaugh (Member # 27) on June 12, 2009, 04:06 PM:
Another opinion for opinions, perhaps a change in the films being released on S8 might keep in underway in the future. Super 8 is a vintage technology today, so instead of releasing high end modern releases that test the limits of S8, back to basics with Classic, Vintage films that are timeless and highly collectible. Specifically titles that have not been or are in release such as Classic Home Cinema "Day the Earth Stood Still", the Hammer Film Series, 60's comedys, the 70's had terrific films that are considered classics. Any of the AFI titles. Even something like "Paper Moon", oscar winner, black and white and likely to be enjoyed presented on film. Digital Cinema is coming so it seems S8 may find a novelty future by showcasing the past and not the present. Most modern films have highly produced sound tracks and in my experience, most new S8 prints fall short in their ability to reproduce acceptable sound from the DVD due to the quality of the mag stripes. Sound on Older titles, since they are indeed older, may come off better to our audiences. I like some of you remix the sound when I receive prints and with few exceptions the new prints are just not up to the mag stripes of 30 years ago. There have been improvements in the new sound stripes recently however that hopefully will continue. We'll just have to wait and listen.
Thanks and a big thank you to all of those that have kept this Forum going, interesting and helpful to readers like me. I will try to participate more in the future.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 12, 2009, 04:07 PM:
Since M&C sold out I'd say it was at least as good a choice as it needed to be.
I think very often the film services have to juggle the balance between what we want and what is available for them to distribute. Many of the studios aren't interested at all in seeing their films come out on Super-8 so very often what we want is impossible for them to get.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 12, 2009, 05:07 PM:
Just out of interest - as I don't collect Super 8 at all - what is the quality of these "brand new" prints that Derann and Classic release? For instance, Classic's GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN - what's the source? Is the result a pin sharp print or soft and dupey looking?
The reason I ask is that I bought a new print of a certain L&H short a few years back from one of the UK companies - but the source was just another 16mm print. So, it was indeed a brand new print but, was essentially a dupe and looked and sounded like one.
Are brand new Super8 prints from these companies really high quality prints or is the attraction just the fact that they are brand new prints?
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 12, 2009, 05:22 PM:
I think it is like everything, which is why keeping alive stuff like Film for the collector/ the reel image is also important because that is where the reviews are (alas like this site as well) I am sure that the places still releasing prints are weighing their options carefully and are probably getting more selective in terms of what they will use for source material. For Instance (don't tell Osi ) but I gave one place a certain IB tech never been played long trailer to try and release in hopes it might spark some interest. If they don't then Osi can, but is it as good as the original color seps? no, is it better than probably anything that is out there for this trailer yes....There are lots of variables in making new prints that cannot be answered simply....I think the overall point is keeping the interest and money in new prints so that the hobby has new material being introduced which can help spark new interest. If everything that is available is just steadily getting older then the only market will be the hoard anything good and price gouge. I would like to see Steve raise the prices slightly and keep importing. Because even with raised prices his are still more fair than most. As for features I think the days of those are ending because even now new ones are fairly out of reach for most of us.
Posted by Lance Alspaugh (Member # 27) on June 12, 2009, 05:47 PM:
In this Forum Members opinion, the Derann picture quality has been outstanding in most respects. Color, Saturation, Contrast for the most part fairly impressive. The German Import prints are getting better but in my opinion have a tendancy to be on the green side. I have read that some Derann prints have a blue tendancy, but I would say that is more tolerable to green. Sound on the mag stripes is another issue. Not blaming here because it is a minor miracle that we have ANY new S8 product in the Digital Age. But it is unfortunate that the mag stripes cannot seem to measure up to the picture quality.
Bottom line as new prints go, Derann is unmatched at the moment.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 12, 2009, 09:18 PM:
I can vouch for the fact of recent releases and they're image quality. I have one from a few years back, "The Mark of Zorro"
(scope) and the color is great and the sharpness is quite nice.
The recent "sci-fi" release (SW 3, is that enough of a hint?) has an image that I would stand up against ANY 16MM PRINT! That is no joke, and while Derann has reached this level of sharpness, it is quite outstanding.
As Lance said, the mag stripe can be another thing al-together, but I was amazed at just how good of a job our very own ...
LANCE ALSPAUGH (shameless plug)
... did at bringing even very good sound out of the balance stripe. Not 6 channel digital surround sound, mind you, but very decent Dolby surround, none the less.
I had forgotten about you sending that same trailer over to CHC.
Lets see if he is willing to release it. I'd certainly buy it.
Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on June 12, 2009, 11:44 PM:
As I've said before, if DERANN released the Universal 8/Castle Films Canon....."What Larks we'll have my boy, what larks!"
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on June 13, 2009, 03:21 AM:
I'm very surprised by the criticism of 'Master and Commander'. It may not have gone down well in the USA (which I find hard to believe) but whatever anyone thinks of 'Britain Rules the Waves' as opposed to the usual work of fiction prevalent in most films it is still an excellent film regardless. Some may not like it personally but there's no getting away from the fact that is it an excellent film.
Rather than criticize Derann for this one I congratulate them on a great choice, born out by the sales. 'End of Days' was selected because it was available and there is a big Arnie following. Some of us may not like it but at least they put something new onto the market. I'm happier with anything coming out rather than nothing.
The situation with Steve Osborne seems to be a bit of a cock-up but I don't think that means we should be slagging off one of the few remaining Super 8 companies off... unless we'll all be happy to see the hobby completely dead and buried.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 13, 2009, 03:28 AM:
Thanks chaps for your replies.
Yes, I understand that the Derann prints are pretty good. I believe their 16mm LONESOME GHOSTS is excellent.
Has anybody had GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN on 16mm from CHC?
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 13, 2009, 09:51 AM:
I have noted, already 8 of the Master and Commander prints being re-sold here and there. I don't know how many were printed, but i have kept count. Either people bought it to watch it once, or it wasn't a keeper. Oh well, enough dog piling on Master and Commander. I'll give it a rest.
Just so all you fellows know in the UK, no bad feelings towards you from the Ole Osi, just a comment, ("Britain rules the Seas" comment; didn't mean to ruffle feathers).
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on June 13, 2009, 10:08 PM:
Regarding one of the above points: although I have no idea if Derann or Classic would consider having prints made by a lab in the USA, it would be interesting to know if a US lab exists that would be willing to provide a good service with regard to producing Super 8 prints at a reasonable price. Although no one is going to make a lot of money releasing Super 8 nowadays, I think the labs have made a significant contribution to the decline, considering the numbers of prints I've seen in recent years with green/blue tints, poor lab splices, negative scratches, unsteady frame lines, etc. The slow service is also important; e.g. Ged once told me that new Derann trailer releases ceased to be viable because they were much easier to sell around the time when the film was released, and lab delays meant that this was no longer possible.
Therefore, I'm inclined to think that finding a lab in the USA (or anywhere) that could offer a good service would be a shot in the arm for Super 8.
Regarding CHC's GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN, I once saw a clip on Super 8 and it was nicely graded and moderately sharp, definitely not dupey looking. And being on b/w stock, there's no green tint! If it was a film I had wanted, I would have bought it.
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on June 13, 2009, 11:15 PM:
Agree with Lance -- it is amazing to believe that, in 2009, there is ANY new Super 8 product (to run on 30+ year-old projectors). I would be more than happy to pay slighty more for new Derann prints for the convenience of being able to order through Steve.
I can't speak for Steve, but it's obvious that he does what he does for the love of the hobby. As a result, we collectors are truly fortunate to have the services of Steve.
And while it's fun to track down used prints, we collectors really need to buy new prints from time to time to support the efforts of Derann and Classic Home Cinema.
Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 14, 2009, 12:38 AM:
I may be greedy,but I want Steve and Derann in business,maybe they can work out a consignment sort of arrangement.If we lose them,I dread the idea of what the only alternative left would be.Maybe if we take some of our auction bucks and dsend them they way of the real dealers,we can keep this hobby going.And,no,this isn't about bashing,(what a laff!)it's about survival of our hobby.These people have given their lives to our hobby and are the real heroes of 8mm.I'm going to order something off the Derann list right now.Suggest you do too,even a small order.If you have a friend close by,order together and combine shipping.Remember,it is up to us if the hobby survives.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 14, 2009, 03:39 AM:
......given their lives to our hobby.........the real heroes of 8mm..........!!!!!
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 14, 2009, 03:09 PM:
Honestly I would order something new from Derann, if there was something they currently have, that I wanted. It would be another whole story if I was totally made of money, I would buy everything new out there whether I wanted it or not, just to support the hobby.
Hell, though I don't have much money, I'm prepared to make that one reel of ads on super 8, just because of the love of this medium, whether it is a widespread release, or a one run off.
Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 15, 2009, 12:56 AM:
Micheal,Derek Simmonds literally did give his life to the hobby.And Steve has kept things going in the US long before the internet came along!
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 15, 2009, 05:43 AM:
I'm not a Collector (hands go up in horror!) but I was until fairly recently a Retailer and if I learnt one lesson in Retail it was never put all your eggs in one basket. It may be difficult for those who have a particular interest, in this case Film Collecting, to see Derann as anything but what they have come to know them for, especially as the Website substantially
concentrates on the Film aspect of their business. But as others have pointed out, that IS inevitably a slowly decreasing market and substantial investment in setting up subsidary facilities in other locations would, I suspect, be verging on the very risky.
Derann have not overlooked the need for diversity; they have a comprehensive AV department and I would hazard a guess that that is instrumental in helping them to continue what you know them best for. In these difficult financial times they must be treading a narrow path. I hope the old saying "use them or lose them" does not apply in their case.... make sure you "use them" anyway.
[ June 15, 2009, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]
Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on June 15, 2009, 08:50 AM:
Just out of interest as Steve Osborne is a prominent player in this business should he not be encouraged to have a profile on this Forum?
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 15, 2009, 09:28 AM:
Though a player in the game, Steve is not your modern man, in that he doesn't like internet or computers in general. He'll reply to a phone call by e-mail if he must, but that's about it.
But then, I really enjoy getting his mailings, (along with his great magazine!) and it is a piece of what John Black describes as "the Old days of Collecting", and there's nothing wrong with that!
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 15, 2009, 01:12 PM:
I didn't mean any harm, John.
It just made me smile, thats all.
I wasn't sure if you were being a little OTT on purpose, though now I see that you weren't.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 15, 2009, 01:32 PM:
John, love your thread, have to say very few Hollywood historical films about our past are rarely accurate,
Mel "Bash the British" Gibson springs to mind right away,
My Brother is a local Historian, (read his book Plymouths Forgotten War, shamaless plug, visit his website www.thewrathofkings.com)
He hates Hollywood films on our history.
M&C was top dog.
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 15, 2009, 01:44 PM:
I just subscribed to Film for the Collector...Took a few days for Gary to get back to me
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on June 15, 2009, 05:58 PM:
Martin Jones, excellent post! I could not have said it better myself!
Along those lines, we collectors all have to remember that Derann is indeed a business -- and they can't stay in business based solely on the nostalgic whims of collectors. That's why we collectors need to put our money where our mouths are -- and not put all of our collecting dollars into used films/auction pursuits.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 15, 2009, 08:02 PM:
... unless what were looking for can't be found at Derann, CHC. ect.
I'm all for supporting the existing companies, but there has to be something that I want. I won't blow what little cash I have on things I don't want.
Though I really don't like ebay, (though it has allowed a little money to come in over time), I wouldn't have built the collection that I have.
For small bucks Osi, buying a pristine used print of Derann's release of Snow White, for instance, for 100.00 dollars, (as I did), allows me to have something that I could never afford or justify at the brand new price.
I know everyone has they're opinion of ebay, and they are, of course, allowed they're opinion, but it must be said that, if not for ebay and definitely, the modern computer age, there are a lot of younger collectors, (myself included), who would not have gotten back into Super or into it in the first place, and that has allowed for a lot more buying selling and trading, which has benefited us all.
Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 16, 2009, 02:08 AM:
I agree with you Osi,but I do get upset when guys like Steve,Phil sheard ,Derann and Perry's aren't given their props.They are the bridge between the glory days of 8mm collecting to now.If they didn't keep it up durung the 80s and 90s when everybody else packed it in,I doubt 8mm would have the interest it has now.
Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 16, 2009, 02:09 AM:
I agree with you Osi,but I do get upset when guys like Steve,Phil sheard ,Derann and Perry's aren't given their props.They are the bridge between the glory days of 8mm collecting to now.If they didn't keep it up durung the 80s and 90s when everybody else packed it in,I doubt 8mm would have the interest it has now.And no offence taken Micheal.Thanks for the reply
Posted by Gary Brocklehurst (Member # 606) on June 16, 2009, 06:12 AM:
It was with much regret that we had to cease granting discounts to our trade customers
The reason being that as a company, we have been absorbing increases in printing, striping, chemical and general business costs for many years whilst not increasing our retail prices, which in turn, have left us with a diminishing profit margin
Our only alternative would have been to increase our retail prices and still offer a trade discount, which we thought would be detremental to the hobby in general
In closing, I must put on record my admiration for Steve Osborne, a most honest and true gentleman
Derann Film Services Limited
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on June 16, 2009, 06:57 AM:
Hear! Hear! - Cheers, Shorty
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 16, 2009, 09:10 AM:
Very good to hear from you, Gary! Never had anything but praise for you guys!
It's sad that there has to be a tightening of the belts but if it must be, than it must be.
Another kudo tossed Derann's way. They have one of the best used films list in the business. Upon inquiry, I know Gary or whoever over at Derann will personally inspect the film in question and get back to you with a thorough answer. Except for a few others, (Barry Atwood is a good notable as well!), they can always be trusted in they're sales, new or otherwise.
That, and always offering us overseas blokes that VAT tax discount, which helps with the cost of shipping.
I would be curious to hear how they're newest cartoon release has done, an early Bug's Bunny cartoon, I believe.
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 25, 2009, 01:32 AM:
Just got my first issue of Film for the Collector, so I'm ay least on board for that...
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