8mm Forum: HID Xenpow conversion for Elmo GS-1200

This is topic HID Xenpow conversion for Elmo GS-1200 in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 02, 2018, 07:27 AM:

I'm starting this thread to compile tips and tricks for making this revolutionary conversion for our projectors.
From what I've read, you need the lamp, the ballast and a modification to the internal fan to run all the time. The Elmo has an internal dowser, so I assume it's OK, but there are some questions in the air:

- Is the internal dowser enough or does it need modification?
- Is it better to install the ballast inside the projector? In this case, any recommendations are very welcome.
- Does the lamp needs some distance correction? How much?

Any advice about these or other issues is very welcome!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on February 02, 2018, 08:42 AM:

The dowser on the GS-1200 is for still projection, therefore it has perforations to let sufficient light through to view stills. As the HID Xenpow stays on all the time the dowser needs to be altered to give a permanent removal of light.

The wiring to the still device will need to be altered in some way to provide separate control of the dowser.

Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 02, 2018, 02:10 PM:

Thanks for the reply, Maurice.
Do you know which material would be good for blocking the light completely?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on February 02, 2018, 02:44 PM:

Possibly a small piece of aluminium, such material is easy to work with.

Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 02, 2018, 03:04 PM:

Thanks a lot. I'll check it out.

Posted by Mark Norton (Member # 165) on February 03, 2018, 05:01 AM:

To simply try out this conversion I ran the lamp wires, with a push fit connector to the ballast, through the bottom of the projector up & in to the lamphouse. Swapped the lamp over & simply plugged in. I didn't have any problems running a few shows like this.
Although it deservedly gets a lot of credit for its very high light out put, for me the colour temperature is too off. Great for black & White's or red prints. But for my own home films or top colour prints I prefer a GS Xenon or Halogen lamp even though they are not as bright.

Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 03, 2018, 05:44 AM:

That's interesting, as the possibility to use the projector with halogen (for recording sound, for example) or HID (for big screenings) sounds very practical.

But I've read that you have to move the lamp position when using the Xenpow, so perhaps you're loosing some quality when doing it this way.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on February 03, 2018, 07:24 AM:

Hello Marc

My GS1200 was professionally modified by Bill Parsons and is now fitted with the Xenpow HD150 lamp, with the ballast fitted to the underside of the projector.

The heat filter that swings into place when the projector is stopped or paused is still as originally made - this allows just enough light to illuminate the frame on screen for getting the correct start frame if I want to synch to a DVD.

My GS is an unusual version - made at the very end of the Elmo GS1200 manufacturing run for telecine use, it has an inbuilt 24 / 25fps pulse synch board, and is a playback only machine with no recording facility.

The ballast is fitted to the underside of the machine permanently, and the Elmo lamp holder modified so the Xenpow lamp will fit - this entails removing the Elmo halogen lamp wiring clips and fitting spring clips to hold the Xenpow lamp in place. The lamp holder is also re-positioned to ensure the light beam is even and correctly focused on the frame.

The originally fitted Elmo cooling fan motor is also rewired so it is on permanently and runs at a higher speed. This is essential as the HID lamp is left on all the time so even when the projector is stopped the cooling fan is needed to prevent overheating in the gate.

I have watched over 40 features and many shorts since the mod was done last year and to my eyes the light colour balance is very close to the Elmo GS1200 xenon I used to have - perhaps some lamps will appear slightly different I wont know until another 800 odd hours when I will need to replace mine.

All in all I would rate it as the best modification I have ever had made to any projector - sadly Bill is not currently repairing or modifying projectors due to his health issues but hopefully you will be able to modify your own projector in due course.

Kevin

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on February 03, 2018, 09:36 AM:

Seems to me, this is the conversion that should be offered by every projector specialist for the GS1200 and maybe other projectors as well.

I think it will be big bussiness and starts a run to their service

Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 03, 2018, 02:51 PM:

Thanks! That's a great tip, as I also do external sync as well as recording on the sound stripe.
Do you know what model of ballast was installed inside the projector and in which place? I think that with all this info I'll be able to start trying the modification with a technician friend.

Matthieu, absolutely! It's the biggest upgrade you can make to these machines.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on February 06, 2018, 04:18 AM:

Hello Marc

Please check your mailbox I will send you a PM message soon.

Kevin

Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on March 01, 2018, 03:35 AM:

Kevin, you've got an answer [Wink]

Please, check your inbox.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 01, 2018, 05:11 AM:

Whoops sorry Marc I missed your original message - will email you later today as promised.

Kevin

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on March 01, 2018, 05:38 AM:

Bumber. I saw this Topic lifted and was hoping for more developement.

I emailed around, but no company here is really experienced with the HID Xenpow 150 conversion.
Would be great if a technician gains some experience with this conversion here in the Benelux-Germany.

Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on March 03, 2018, 04:20 AM:

Hello!
can anyone post some Pictures here of this Lamp and how it is mounted into the GS 1200.

Thank you

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 03, 2018, 04:39 AM:

Thomas
Here is a picture of the lamp.
I am sorry that I do not know how it fits in an Elmo GS-1200 as mine is in a 16mm Bell & Howell 644.
https://www.stagesuperstore.co.uk/xenpow-hid-150-discharge-lamp-4320-p.asp

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 03, 2018, 07:17 AM:

Hello Thomas

Here is a picture of the Xenpow HID150 in my GS1200 - I hope this helps you but I will not be expanding further on this modification as all credit for perfecting this on the GS1200 should go to Bill Parsons who is unable to do more at the moment due to illness.

When Bill is able to comment I'm sure he will do so.

Kevin

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 03, 2018, 09:46 AM:

I like the shield for the lamp's terminals, and the fact that the two wires have been put in some sleeving.

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on March 03, 2018, 11:44 AM:

It looks like it fits the lampholder as it is, but the lamp seems a bit smaller so he used the wires to hold the lamp in place.
Watching the photo, there's no need to move the lamp back?

Now, the fan of my Elmo GS1200 keeps blowing when I shut down the lamp. I have to turn down the power button to get the projector quiet.
I have a MKIII model, that is the base for a Xenon, I think, so probably that's why.

Does this mean I only have to place the lamp and power the lamp outside and it works?
No worries about the cooling?

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on April 16, 2018, 08:01 AM:

I have a few qquestions about the conversion of my GS1200.

- Will this lampholder be usefull to place and hold the Xenpow HID150 as well, in the Elmo?
https://winkel.van-eck.net/lampen/p-4a/LV-0011--lampen.htmlGS1200

- Is the dowser working right on the GS1200 after putting in a Xenpow HID150, without having to change anything.

- If the lamp is Off, I can still hear the ventilator, so do I need to place an extra PC ven?

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on April 16, 2018, 12:27 PM:

Hello Matthieu

I am concerned you may be planning to take on this conversion yourself without having the required level of technical expertise or information - as a general guide here is some more info but PLEASE if you are not technically minded you must get someone who is to carry out the mods for you.

1. The Xenpow lamp fits into the original Elmo GS1200 lamp holder - you have to remove all the original lamp terminals and sprung clamp then fit bolts and a stout spring wire exactly as shown in my picture to hold the Xenpow lamp securely in place. Once installed the original black Elmo lamp cover is refitted too.

2. The original GS1200 still picture heat filter provides ample dowsing and comes down into place when the projector is stopped so needs no further modification.

3. The cooling fan needs to be set to run at full speed mode all the time - you will need to study the Elmo GS1200 circuit and wiring diagrams to work out how to do this. No extra cooling fan is needed, just setting the original fan to run at maximum high speed permanently is sufficient.

4. The Xenpow HID lamp needs its own suitable power supply ballast - it cannot be powered by the original GS1200 24v lamp supply. There are a number of versions available and some work better than others - again an experienced electronics technician will be able to help you with this.

If you are unsure of any of the technical aspects described you may be better advised to keep your current Halogen GS1200 as it is and search for an Elmo GS1200 Xenon projector instead - Ian from Perry's Movies has one for sale in the 8mm Forums equipment for sale section for a very fair price at the moment in case you are interested.

Kevin

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on April 16, 2018, 12:45 PM:

Thank you Kevin.

I did send an eMail to van Eck. Those people really have knowledge of Super8 projectors.
Hopefully they will do the conversion.
Otherwise, I'm going to try it myself.

As a noob, I can always add an extra ven, and wire that from outside.
Also do the Xenpow balast from outside.
Or not?

The Xenpow will have a better result and the projectoir will be much quieter.
Not that I ever witnessed a Xenon, but that is what I've read so far.

Also I do not like the idea of shipping an Elmo GS1200, so I have to go to London.
(Which my wife wont have a problem with, but carying the weight around London till I'm home,...
I'll become Arnold Schwarzenegger.)

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on April 30, 2018, 07:00 AM:

Great news.

Van Eck is taking a serious look at this Xenpow HID150 conversion, so that is promissing.
To me those people are very skilled. They even make parts for projectors that are hard to come by and invent new solutions as well if the origenal design has flaws. (Like the intake with extra rollers for the GS1200 for example.)

I'm spoecially happy, because I live nearby.
When I look at my wife nicely, and ask her to drive to the Efteling, she happely make a pitstop at ven Ecks for me.

I'll keep you posted, but I'm going to pack my Elmo GS1200 already hahaha.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on April 30, 2018, 11:24 AM:

Regarding the 150watt Xenpow lamp, has anyone found a source and model for the needed ballast?

Thank you!

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 01, 2018, 11:06 AM:

The conversion is not going to happen.
This is so sad.
If anyone knows of an experienced technician, who is willing to do this, I'm all ears?

A tutorial of how to do this youraelf is also welcome?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 01, 2018, 02:05 PM:

Alan
I believe this is the ballast in my 16mm Bell & Howell.
https://www.venturelightingeurope.com/products/hid-lighting/ballasts-and-components/ventronic-ballasts/hid-data-sheet.html?code=VYS150255

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on May 02, 2018, 08:13 AM:

Nice find Maurice, thank you.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on May 02, 2018, 11:51 AM:

A word of friendly advice to anyone planning to take the plunge and modify their GS1200 to use HID lighting - the choice of lamp power supply is one that must be made very carefully as the GS is hyper susceptible to electrical interference - as I found out myself when I fitted one to a GS a while ago - although the power supply had all the correct attributes to both strike and run the lamp, it also created so much interference to make it useless when used with the GS it literally drove the amplifier circuit crazy.

It took a couple more attempts to find a version that worked and it is my understanding that version is no longer made.

I am in no way trying to put people off modifying their GS1200 to HID - but please consider the time taken and trial and error attempts during the original modification process for Bill Parsons (and possibly other skilled projector techs) to come up with the ideal combination of components - it is by no means as simple a process to complete successfully as some may think it is.

Kevin

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 02, 2018, 12:09 PM:

But powering the Xenpow HID150 with the ballast from outside, should not give those problems, do they?

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 02, 2018, 12:10 PM:

Oops, Double post

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on May 02, 2018, 12:35 PM:

I'm not sure Matthieu as mine is fitted underneath the projector so effectively outside but still close to the amplifier components - yes in theory a longer set of leads from an exterior power supply should help - it is a case of trial and error, the manufacturer, Ventronic, have made at least six different versions in the past few years, some worked OK with the GS and some didn't.

This is where having a professional tech to do the work pays off as you will not end up with a collection of non suitable power supplies the suppliers will not take back as they work to the original spec (ie: strike and light the lamp) it is not their problem if they cause a sound fault when used with nearly 40 year old cine projectors.

Kevin

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 02, 2018, 02:49 PM:

But that's the problem.
There are no technicians who are experienced with this Xenpow HID150 conversion and still offering this service.
Or am I wrong?
I really hope so.

When I'm wrong,...
- Can there be made a list of them and where this service takes place, country, city?
- How long does this conversion take? (For people who live in another country and maybe book a vacation for it, to bring the GS1200 the first day and pick it up the last day.)
- Or what's the best way of packing and shipping an Elmo GS1200?
Wrepped in a thick blanked/comforter and stuffed in a wooden box, knowing that the service company takes care of the same way of shipment, and will the duanne keep it packed like that at the borders?

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on May 02, 2018, 10:01 PM:

As Kevin pointed out the balast in the link is no longer available so the hunt continues. Ive been searching for weeks and found only a few options and have no idea if they will work. The only way to find out is to spend the money and keep our fingers crossed. If anyone else comes accross a balast and or source please update this thread,

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 04, 2018, 02:49 PM:

quote:
It is my understanding that version is no longer made

Kevin quoted this, however Venture Lighting's website is very active, and RS Components Ltd say "Available for back order for despatch 9 May 2018."
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lighting-ballasts/7174035/
https://www.venturelightingeurope.com/products/hid-lighting/ballasts-and-components/ventronic-ballasts/hid-data-sheet.html?code=VYB150255

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on May 04, 2018, 03:16 PM:

Just to clarify Maurice, my statement in full was:

'It took a couple more attempts to find a version that worked and it is my understanding that version is no longer made.'

I was referring to the version used on my projector as no longer being available, not to the one you mentioned - I have no experience of that version so cannot comment on whether it will be suitable and not cause excessive interference if used with a GS1200.

It would be useful if others with HID modded GS1200s could comment on this with their experiences if they had tried and found versions that did or did not work.

Kevin

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 04, 2018, 03:59 PM:

I know some of these machines were modified and used in larger rooms, such as the BFCC showings among others.
Please excuse my ignorance here, but is the light output on a GS1200 not more than enough for an average room?
I know there is always room for improvement but the cost of it all and the skills required to do it seem quite intense. Then of course if it should require future attention the problems start all over again [Wink]

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 04, 2018, 04:21 PM:

The light of the ESC lamp is too warm and yellow and is not so good for colors (now we've seen better) compared to the 15V150W XLS Xenophot lamps, which makes colors more vibrant.
Xenon give even a whiter light that goes more to the 6000Kelvin.
For video we calibrate the light to 6500 kelvin, which is a good lightcolor.
Many video projectors have a too cool light output of above 7000 Kelivn and need a calibration.
Super8 projectors where too warm and around 3500 Kelvin.

So you see,... it is not only for brightness, but also for a good white color.
If my GS1200 had the brightness of my Bauer T610 with the somewhat whiter color, I would be happy already.
At first I was searching for a 24V250WXenophot conversion, till a few came with the easy to fit Xenpow HID150

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on May 04, 2018, 06:00 PM:

Hello Tom

HID has not been used at the BFCC - the original GS1200 used there was Keith's GS1200 Xenon, which was more recently joined by John's HTI GS1200 - confusing I know but HTI and HID are not the same type of illumination - in the case of John's HTI machine (again modified by the master Bill Parsons) I believe it is the brightest GS1200 ever converted although I would be interested to hear from others 'in the know' if this is not the case.

So to your question - yes the Halogen GS1200 ESC does provide a big and bright image, but as with all halogen lamps a somewhat yellow light compared to the whiter light of HID, HTI and short arc Xenon lamps. It is only when you see the difference when projecting a film you are familiar with you may then feel that halogen is no longer for you - a bit like the old washing powder ads of yesteryear when the customers were asked if they would like to go back to their old brand having seen the results of a new 'whiter than white' detergent.

Additionally, once modified a HID GS1200 has the lowest lamp running cost per hour - 50 hours per ESC at £20+ each, or 800 to 1000 hours for a HID lamp at about £60 each. HID lamps are in current production, top quality ESC lamps are not (by top quality I mean Fuji, Elmo or GEC brands).

I stand by my comments I've made to many collectors when chatting this is the best value modification I have ever had done to any projector I've owned and wholeheartedly recommend anyone with a GS1200 that wants to get the very best picture quality to go for it as long as they have the technical skills or access to a tech that can do it properly for them.

Kevin

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 05, 2018, 01:54 AM:

Thank you Kevin for clarifying your statement.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on May 05, 2018, 03:25 AM:

Yes, the HID wasn't used at the BFFC, but was at the Blackpool event. 16mm and Super 8 if I remember correctly.

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 05, 2018, 05:08 AM:

Nicely said Kevin.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on May 05, 2018, 05:15 AM:

So what's the easier conversion, HID or HTI, or are they pretty much the same ballast/lamp affair?

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 05, 2018, 02:35 PM:

Thanks for the info Kevin, now i have a much better understanding.
Next question, what can be done with an ST1200HD [Big Grin]

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