This is topic Why would I need a Xenon projector? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Dave Clevinger (Member # 6351) on February 24, 2018, 09:49 AM:
I mainly run 16mm TV prints, some movies but no scope in my current collection.
So would a Xenon be overkill for my circumstances?
I really don't know much about them except the lamp is brighter (more expensive) different color temp than halogen.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 24, 2018, 10:22 AM:
I am a long term collector and fully understand how good the xenon lamps are especialy where a large hall or somewhere is used. I have also had an Elf xenon 16mm projector demonstrated to me and while i thought it was good i could never justify one for the room i use my projectors in.
The bulbs seems to be hell of expensive and i guess after 40 years of collecting i would be throwing money away. Never had it so never missed it.
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on February 24, 2018, 11:09 AM:
I am sorry but I have to disagree with the previous statement: I run my Elmo GS 1200 Xenon in my home-based screenign room (basically the living room with a hole in one of the walls to separate the projection booth from the audience). Prior to that I used a Fumeo Halogen 250 W model 9120 projector. To me it makes a lot of difference even if the distance from lens to screen is about 7 meters (20-25 feet). I get a 1.5m image base (which doubles when screening scope prints). It's not just a matter of brighter pictures: it's also a matter of color, saturation contrast; whites seem whiter, blacks look darke,r even resolution and definition seem sharper with no apparent increase in grain. It's a sort of magic I cannot explain in words. In fact I'd like to suggest if you can upgrade to xenon, it's worth it and go for it!
Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 24, 2018, 03:24 PM:
I have to agree with Maurizio,Xenon light gives so more to the image on screen,films look so much better on all accounts,does wonders with black and white films and Disney animated look superb,definitely all for Xenon,Mark
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 24, 2018, 03:30 PM:
I do understand that xenon is a better light, no problem with that, ive simply always been content with what we get from the HD using the 1:1. For me to upgrade it would probably have to be anew projector and the bulbs and all the cost involved, i would just rather spend the dosh on more films.
Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 24, 2018, 03:57 PM:
If your happy with your HD1200 that's all that matters,if I hadn't got my Xenon machine at the right price I wouldn't have bought one but seeing the difference it makes to my films I'm glad I took the plunge,if I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't have believed the difference achieved,Mark
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 25, 2018, 07:07 AM:
What sort of prices are the xenon bulbs these days?
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 25, 2018, 08:03 AM:
The Xenon bulb is indeed expensive, but the life rate is much longer than the halogen ones, right?
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 25, 2018, 08:24 AM:
I think there are different models of xenon bulbs and different prices. The French 9.5 club ordered very recently a new xenon lamp and I believe the price was around 500 euros. As mentionned by Winbert, those bulbs last for long but of course, that's a budget...
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 25, 2018, 09:29 AM:
Its a subject of much debate on here, I have adapted a hid lamp to do almost the same job as the xenon based gs 1200, and at fraction of the cost of lamp, complete it would cost around £40.00 now, would need some refining, and you can use the reflector from the esc 24v 200w, i have remanufactured the gs xenon reflector now, just need some fettling and bright polishing. The xenon reflector is by now completely shot, no reflective surface at all, this lamp generates a lot of heat, hence the fan running at a higher speed and sounding like a Volcan bomber taxing on the runway......
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 25, 2018, 09:46 AM:
Paul, it seems that by doing it yourself, you saved a lot of money http://www.ffr-film.de/eng-hti-.html
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 25, 2018, 10:47 AM:
The hti 150 lamp Dominique can be bought for less than 30 euro's at any disco supplier on line, its what martin lighting have been using for 20 years or more, they were made by Philips originally and now come from china at a fraction of that price, in fact buy the whole martin light use all the electronic ballast that comes with it for less than 100 euro's, any one with a little knowledge could modify this and get the same results. I have already talked about this on the forum, the martin lighting fixtures use a circular aperture roughly the same size as a 16mm gate, so I figured that the reflector and lamp from these units would be already setup to focus most of the light on this gate,
and the lamp used can be a hid 150 lamp to a 250w lamp hid, we have missed a trick here gents, why reinvent the wheel......
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 25, 2018, 11:19 AM:
I should try with one of my 16 mm projectors.
Posted by Colin Fish (Member # 5679) on February 25, 2018, 12:22 PM:
Hello Paul, This lighting sounds really interesting. What Martin model would I need to buy to get the bits? There are so many variations.
Posted by Dave Clevinger (Member # 6351) on February 25, 2018, 12:35 PM:
Well this is all good info - I am considering Xenon more now than I was.
I don't have to keep all my other projectors I could sell a couple of them to help finance a Xenon model.
IS the Elmo CL-16 Xenon (seems on the low-end) any good - or should I look for a more expensive model...Also the throw distance for my projector to screen now is about 14-15 feet. Will a Xenon lamp be to bright for that distance?
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 25, 2018, 12:38 PM:
Hello Colin, martin robo colour, the early one's are just 250watt halogen lamps, robo 11 and 111 use hid lamps, these use a 150w and 250w lamps. The roboscan range also use the 150w hid lamp, and you can get these sometimes cheaper for one off's as most dj's will want multiples of these. The martin acrobat is a 250w halogen lamp lighting effect and if you want to use these for the GS1200, again they can be bought for less than cost the separate components. Philips do a 24v 250watts long life lamp, in fact 500 hours for less than £20.00 on ebay, if you want to go that route, If you want more info just let me know Colin.....
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 25, 2018, 01:32 PM:
I have been on both sides of the fence in regards to Xenon/Halogen/HTI.
Of course the light is whiter, brighter, and overall nicer for most things.
I wanted a GS1200 Xenon for so long and I finally got one many years ago. The first thing I noticed was the loudness of the fan when I turned the unit on. It sounded like a jet airplane getting ready for take off! I wasn't expecting that. But the image was beautiful. Colors really popped, especially animated films. Blues seemed bluer..reds redder..you get it.
Then I had to sell it because of unforeseen circumstances. I didn't have a Xenon for many years after that, just a standard halogen model. And lo and behold. I didn't miss it that much. I liked that the standard was quieter and of course that I could get the bulbs much easier. And of course I didn't have to baby it as much with the lamp..worrying it might go out and then I would have to pay $400 plus to replace it.
I finally got a Xenon again and I do love it but if I had to go back to the Halogen it would be fine.
Previously I thought that brighter lamps were always better. But a few months ago I was watching the Abbot Costello "Who's on first" on Super 8. I first put it on the Xenon and it looks good. Then I watched it again on the Bauer T610 with the 150watt Halogen. And to me I preferred the Bauer!
The Xenon actually looked like it was blowing out the whites and the film had a very clinical cold washed out look. The Bauer had a very warm look to the film which I surprisedly preferred.
I love my Xenon's and HTI's but I also have 2 Halogens which I love as well.
Posted by Colin Fish (Member # 5679) on February 25, 2018, 01:34 PM:
Thanks for the reply Paul. What xenon wattage lamp would you compare to the HID 250w lamp? (If that's possible).
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 25, 2018, 01:56 PM:
Alan's point is about the availability of the xenon lamp and more to point cost, will put a lot of people off for sure. This is my point, these hid lamps can be obtained for fraction of the price of the correct xenon lamp for the elmo, and believe it to be the same lamp for the 16mm elmo xenon and reflector. If you obtain the parts to convert your projector for less than the price of one lamp, and you know or know someone who could convert it for you, why not?. I have not done a like for like lamp brightness test Colin but having used both the martin robo color and the xenon GS I would say its at least as bright as the xenon GS, at a fraction of the price. The hid car version is nearly as bright as the beauieu, which is damn bright for a halogen lamped projector, but it was only a three bladed gs not converted to two, which would add a fair bit more light output. If you have gs 1200 Colin, I will send you the kit I made up to try out if you want......
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on February 25, 2018, 02:04 PM:
I have a few Xenon S8 and a few HTI. I prefer the HTI in every case. The Xenon offers a more accurate color temperature but it does not equal the HTI in light output. More light seams to make it through the small S8 aperture with HTI. I attribute this to the shape and focus of the reflector being optimized better for S8.
I do notice a difference in color temperature between Xenon and HTI. Xenon has a nice blue tint HTI leans a little more to green when comparing side by side.
I agree with Paul, parts are avail for DIY HTI conversion however in my experience finding the right ballast with starter can be a difficult task.
Posted by Colin Fish (Member # 5679) on February 26, 2018, 12:27 PM:
That's really kind of you Paul but I'm thinking of a lamphouse for a 35mm projector.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 26, 2018, 01:10 PM:
Hello Colin, the robocolor 111 would probably be bright enough, as this has a 250w hid lamp, and all the parts could transfer to your 35mm projector because you have more space, so that's lamp, reflector, starter ballast, cooling fan, power supply, you may need to adjust the lamp to reflector distance to accommodate the 35mm gate. It probably wouldn't need much adjusting perhaps moving the whole assembly back a tad .....
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on February 27, 2018, 11:39 AM:
quote:Paul do you have a picture of your kit or a completed conversion.
If you have gs 1200 Colin, I will send you the kit I made up to try out if you want.....
I have played around with the auto HID units using a ELC reflector and a 200w power supply. I was disappointed with the light output regardless trying different placements of the lamp in the reflector and playing with the distance to the gate. Thank you.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 28, 2018, 01:25 AM:
Hello Alan, I have tried to upload here several times without success and just gave up trying. Mine was just a what if ..., then went from there. I used a blown esc lamp reflector, but I doubt that it could not be done with any other reflector type. I setup a good esc lamp a set distance from a flat surface 90 degrees to the lamp/holder, got a best sharpest circle, measured across this diameter, then setup my modified lamp and holder to the same size and distance, you need to look carefully to avoid "hotspots" with these lamps, I suggest using sun glasses as this light is quite intense once it reaches full brightness and you will see spots before your eyes, be warned..... This lamp was then "glued " temporarily in position and left to set. Once set I used a light meter for test the light output compared to my beaulieu, just shy of it, but as bright as the esc original lamp output, but better colour whiter light and much cheaper and easier to find than the now esc Fuji lamp.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on February 28, 2018, 02:06 AM:
Did you install a Dichroic Reflector ?
There are not easy to find alone on market.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 28, 2018, 03:53 AM:
Hello Phil, no, I reverse engineered the one fitted to the xenon gs 1200, and had some spun, these are much bigger in size than the esc Fuji lamp fitted to the standard elmo, but will take a larger hid/hti lamp, correct for gs distance to gate setting anyway, may need to tinker with this setting for a 16mm or 35mm gate.....
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