This is topic Open Gate Super 8 prints. in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.


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Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 09, 2019, 03:33 AM:
 
This relates to Burton's review of his fabulous Fugitive print, but I thought I'd start it as a new topic.

Osi was questioning the picture ratio, as this print was produced open gate.

A lot of flat super 8 features were printed from open gate 35mm origins, so there is picture area top and bottom which really should be masked off.

Projector gates in cinemas would mask the 35mm image to 1.85:1, cropping off the top and bottom.

Some 35mm prints were printed hard masked, which meant that black bars were printed top and bottom of frame.

So, on an open gate super 8 print, you do have the risk of seeing mics in shot, etc. as this area of picture was not supposed to be seen on screen.

One simple fix is to mask your screen top and bottom with black velvet to give a 1.85:1 ratio. Then zoom the image out so that the top and bottom is projected onto the velvet. This absorbs much of the light and gives you a genuine 1.85:1 cinematic image, with no anomalies creeping into frame.
 
Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on July 09, 2019, 04:17 AM:
 
Back in the days of 4:3 TV ‘Open gate’ regular and ‘super 35mm’ also lent themselves to direct telecine transfer without the need for additional pan/scan.

‘Shoot and protect’ (shoot for theatrical and protect for TV) was the theory however erroneous framing by the cinematographer occasionally results in visible ‘dolly tracks’ and mic booms, etc, as discussed.

Happy framing!
Best.
Rick
 
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 09, 2019, 04:34 AM:
 
Reminds me of the transition from 4:3 TV to 16:9.

For many years, when shooting 16:9, you had to have markers in the viewfinder for 14:9 and make sure you protected the edges for people still using 4:3 TVs set to the slightly masked 14:9
 
Posted by John Armer (Member # 4655) on July 09, 2019, 07:06 AM:
 
Funnily enough I was thinking about this very thing myself. I've a copy of Predator which is full screen but should be masked I believe.

I was wondering if anyone had ever masked the gate of their Super 8 projector to achieve this? I think this is how it is done in the cinema.
 
Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on July 09, 2019, 07:50 AM:
 
Two Derann prints I once owned (The Devil Rides Out and Silence Of The Lambs) briefly had boom mics visible in a scene.
 
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 09, 2019, 11:16 AM:
 
Rob!

What a wonderful topic! I had forgotten about that term, "open gate". Glad to know it again!

Sometimes in films, there will be multiple ratios on one print. My optical super 8 print of "People That Time Forgot" has at least, three separate aspect ratios, one, the "open gate", two, letterboxed or masked shots, and i think there is at least one or two instances where it is "in between", 9I might be wrong about that third one.

I have heard that this is also common in films with lots of special effects shots. Different elements added together and then, a "hard mask' in order to have the whole bloody thing the same ratio! [Smile]
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 09, 2019, 01:10 PM:
 
Guess who is still using a 4:3 TV? [Big Grin] I kid you not.
 
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 09, 2019, 02:30 PM:
 
Paul, there’s still a lot to be praised about CRT quality.

Yep, the super 8 Predator is open gate. Not too many issues, but you do see the word VIDEO in some of the Predator POV shots, which is from the effects house that made the shots and should be masked off.

I think we’ve discussed super 8 gate masking before, but to honest I think it’s unrealistic.

Better to mask the screen for the appropriate feature.

Osi, Gremlins always springs to mind as having variable masking, as one part of the 35mm has hard 1.85:1 masking, but the rest is open gate. Not problem in the cinema, but the abridged super 8 print shows the hard masking for part of the second 600ft edit. Fortunately there are no boom mics and such on the open gate sections.
 
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 10, 2019, 11:37 AM:
 
Hey Paul!!!

I too am using an old school 4.3 TV! Heck, it's a 40 some inch TV that still has an excellent image, so why get rid of it? 9I save the "good image" for my projections! [Smile] )

The funny thing is that, for years, i have had a "Sharp-vision" TV that projects a 200ft image, but i haven't used it in years! Hah!
 
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 10, 2019, 07:45 PM:
 
Osi, our TV is a 36ins Sony XBR with a CRT which is now 20 years old. The picture and sound is great, like new, in fact IMO CRT displays have much better contrast and depth than flat panel TV'S. We only watch the news shows anyway, the rest of the 300 channels we get from Directv are hardly ever used (about 150 of those channels are commercial promo's anyway1 [Frown] ). So I see no need to upgrade, we get the best movie shows in Orlando in our home cinema. The only down side is that the CRT beast weighs over 200 lbs!
 
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on July 10, 2019, 09:12 PM:
 
Getting back on topic, in the Universal digest of The Nude Bomb the boom mic can be clearly seen in a couple of shots.

Doug
 
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on July 11, 2019, 02:06 PM:
 
My Derann "Goldfinger" is what I always believed was always called "Open matte", some shots are masked some are not - no sign of extraneous film equipment though.
 
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 11, 2019, 02:37 PM:
 
Actually Brian, good point. Open gate refers more to shooting the movie, whereas open matte refers more to the theatrical print, so you are right, we really should refer to these super 8 prints as open matte.

After 16:9 TV became standard, it didn't matter so much, but back in the day when VHS 4:3 was the norm (and super 8) it does seem random that some films were indeed filmed open gate for 1.85:1 projection, but protected for a full frame video release, whereas other productions just seemed to assume that the 1.85:1 version was all that would never be seen and allowed all sorts to creep into the open framing, especially in the 80's when the video business was huge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_matte

[Smile]
 
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 11, 2019, 02:42 PM:
 
And all this time I thought it meant a print saturated in filmguard...... [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on July 11, 2019, 03:47 PM:
 
There is also some discussion on other forums about the intended ratio for Hammer films. As the 5 frame piece of 35mm film included in my copy of the Walton Films Story (issued by Larry Pierce of LGP) was from Twins of Evil I can see it was printed open matte and the cinema decided on the projected ratio. I assume it would have been whatever they were set up for. Strangely it is less faded than the Walton Super 8 extracts I have.
 
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 12, 2019, 11:20 AM:
 
To get back on track ... (snicker snick)

Paul, ours is about 20 years old as well and the funny thing is that the volume control functions panel has actually un-attached itself and fallen back into the TV but fortunately, we can still use the remote to operate the TV. It's days are numbered, but I already have a flat screen TV set aside in the bedroom as soon as we are done using this! [Smile]

... and, i just LOVE finding all those little mics and such on the films.
 
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 17, 2019, 08:25 AM:
 
I have Derann’s print of the Hammer film The Reptile and it is open matte.

There are no real issues, but some soft variable masks on certain shots.

Also in some day for night shots, the skyline is visible at the very top of frame.

Comparing it to the Blu-ray version at 1.85:1, I’d say that the intention in cinemas would have been a 1.85:1 gate mask.
 


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