8mm Forum: Getting into 16mm

This is topic Getting into 16mm in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000620

Posted by Nick Field (Member # 2132) on February 20, 2011, 02:27 PM:

Hi people,I'm thinking of purchasing a 16mm projector,just wondering if any of you have any views or preferences on 16mm projectors, any to steer clear of? mechanical and sound issues etc.
Many Thanks.
Nick.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 20, 2011, 03:36 PM:

Hi Nick,
My preference are the Elf/Eiki range of 16mm projectors,They can be picked up for a reasonable sum and are reliable workhorses.I've had the ST/m models in the past which were great,200w lamps and 2200 reel capacity,I'm now using two NT1 models and again are great reliable machines with 250w lamps.I've owned a couple Bell & Howell over the years but have found them quite noisey in operation and you've got to watch the worm gears on those as they can crack.Elmo CL's(slot loaders)are nice and quiet but the sound isn't it's best feature,Saying that though it's not terrible.So for me a good NT1 Elf i've found to be a good useable and reliable unit,Kind to film and fairly quiet running,Also plenty about so spares shouldn't be a problem,Mark.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 20, 2011, 05:03 PM:

I agree with Mark.

I use an Eiki RM-1 and a RT-1. Both excellent.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 20, 2011, 06:46 PM:

I have an Eiki SSL-0 and and SL-0. Both nice machines.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 20, 2011, 08:29 PM:

An important attribute with regard to Eiki/Elf projectors is that they were still being made at least up to 2003, so most spares and lenses are readily available. In general, they are also considered easier to repair than some other types. I've owned several and I'd say you can't beat the most recent models, which would be ENT or SNT (autothread) or SSL or ESL (slot load). The ENT is my personal favourite. However, these models are relatively hard to find in the UK - I bought mine from sellers in the USA and France - but if you keep a look out on eBay and elsewhere, you might be lucky.

Posted by Den Brown (Member # 819) on February 21, 2011, 02:32 PM:

Consider what sort of films you will be running. If it is your own stuff, say a cutting copy with several splices, beware, the Elf is brutal with joins. A fantastic machine for complete reels but they behave like savages when a splice passes through them.

The Elmo CL had no such issues.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 21, 2011, 03:03 PM:

Gee, Den, I've had no such problems with splices and my Eikis at all.

Methinks, you're being a little hard on them.

[Smile]

Posted by Mike Williamson (Member # 796) on February 21, 2011, 03:30 PM:

No, I agree with Den. My EIKI SSL is terrible going over splices. It will jump and get noisy and I constantly have to get up and down to stop and restart it if there are many splices.

My ELMO 16CL projectors breeze right through splices.

The EIKI focus knob is a joke, too. Little dinky thing rolling a tiny piece of rubber...It's like a kid's toy.

I now use my EIKI SSL as a rewind station only. I think these projectors suck, honestly.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on February 21, 2011, 04:07 PM:

Well my experience with Eiki is this:

I have a Eiki slot load rebadged as a Bell & Howell 3580. The focus knob is a bad design but an easy fix with small rubber hose. Mine works fine. And splices do make noise and occasionally foul up the loop but generally run fine. I have an older Bell & Howell 385 manual load that runs just about any splice you can give it without issue but I can't complain too much about my Eiki/B&H slot load. I love it. Threading and unthreading is a breeze. That's my thoughts.

Bill [Smile]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 21, 2011, 05:02 PM:

As with most things we all have our preferences,The Bell & Howell machine i had(can't remember the model but it was a very late machine)was very good for splicey films,I think it had a 3 claw mechanism, but i found it was so noisey when running a film that i didn't have it for long!!I didn't think they were that kind on films either.The Elmo CL i found to be lovely,Great for checking films over as they are so easy to use being a slot loader but as i stated earlier i thought the sound lets them down a bit with less adjustment controls.The Elf's i've had since seemed to suit my needs better,A very splicey film can effect them but that's normally down to a bad splice,I've never really had an issue with splices saying that .I've also got a very late brown RM1 machine which is a manual loader and that's just so quiet in operation,but as everyday machines i use the NT1's.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 21, 2011, 05:02 PM:

Well, I have no experience with the slot loaders at all. I use the basic manual threading RM-1 and have had no problems at all with splices.

To each his own, I guess.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 21, 2011, 09:33 PM:

I've come across Eiki's that are not good at handling splices but I don't think my ENT is bad in this respect. If anyone has this problem, I'd suggest checking if the pressure plate is applying enough pressure because in my experience it's not unusual to find ones that are not. That applied to a virtually unused SSL I obtained a few years ago. Maybe they didn't use top quality springs!

Posted by Paul Spinks (Member # 573) on February 21, 2011, 10:30 PM:

I've got a couple of Bell & Howells (2592 and 2585). They are nice machines but I usually always use one of my Elf RM1's when I'm showing films as they are so nice to use and I love the manual lace up. Like Michael I have never had any issues with splices and I must say they are my favourite projectors. I've got an Elf NT1 somewhere but I never use it.

Posted by Nick Field (Member # 2132) on February 22, 2011, 01:36 AM:

Thank's guy's for your replies, bit of a mixed reaction on this one. funnilly enough i've been looking at Elf/Eiki and elmo slot loads for a few months now,the elmo looks to be very basic and user friendly but some models of the Elf/Eiki do have the two formats of mag & opt sound which is tempting me somwhat.The reason for getting into 16mm is that there seems to be a lot more features available than on the super 8 format but i will still collect super 8. [Big Grin]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 22, 2011, 07:16 AM:

quote:
there seems to be a lot more features available than on the super 8 format....

You'll also need a lot more money if you're to get decent prints.
[Big Grin]

Welcome to the 16mm nuthouse!!

I sold my wife and kids for film money years ago [Big Grin]

[ February 22, 2011, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Michael O'Regan ]

Posted by Den Brown (Member # 819) on February 22, 2011, 10:32 AM:

Oh dear, looks like I opened a right can of worms. I was not being down on Elfs as I use them - I have three. When I switched from Elmo I could not believe the difference when splices run through an Elf, it is truly wince inducing. Only one machine sometimes gives trouble restoring a loop so this is not an issue. I just do not like the loud judder and fear for the print as it goes through.

I thought I'd mention it in case Nick planned to shoot his own stuff, edit an assembly and project this cutting copy - it would run poorly. However, it seems he will be buying features so there should be no such concerns.

Posted by Nick Field (Member # 2132) on February 22, 2011, 02:22 PM:

I do like the idea of shooting and editing my own films, it may happen in the near future with a bit of luck. [Smile]

Posted by Paul Spinks (Member # 573) on February 22, 2011, 08:42 PM:

Hi Den,
you didn't open a can of worms with your comments about Elf's as you can only go by your own experience. I personally think that my Bell and Howells are better machines, but I really enjoy the manual lace up on the Elf's which I think is kinder to film and much more fun to use. Also they are solid work horses. I on the other hand have never had a Eumig Standard 8,Super 8 or dual guage projector that didn't give me trouble so I steer clear of them, even though I know that they are great projectors and many collectors have found them to be the best. I just always seem to get the temperamental ones that destroy my films or die very quickly. I am well and truly jinxed when it comes to Eumigs. [Frown]

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on April 08, 2011, 02:39 PM:

I have B&H 2580s and 2585s and I love them. Yes, the worm gears are the originals and I know B&H used crappy worms so I expect them to go at some point. One already has slippage so I only use it for rewind functions. Thankfully, there are gents like Richard Patchett who not only repairs these babies, but also sells nicely refurbed units at very reasonable prices. I like the models I use because they are very easy on film and user-friendly. Slot loads are so nice when a film gets stuck because you can easily slip it out without causing more damage. I haven't had problems with splices running through my B&H's and I would definitely buy the same units again.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 23, 2011, 04:07 AM:

I bought this Bell and Howell Slot Loader 1680GS "far right in the photo" back in 1996. The projector has had a lot of use over the years and runs great and so far the worm gear is fine and use it all the time. The big plus over the Eiki and I have a few of those as back up, is the 3 claw pull down on the Bell and Howell, compared with the 2 the Eiki has. I have seen other film collectors with Eiki projectors loose there loop often...of coarse this is down to the film itself, but having a three claw on the B/H on old film in my view is much better and safer to use. The thing is, every time you loose a loop you damage more of the film. Eiki projectors are well made machines but its a pity they did not go for that 3 claw arrangement, unfortunately thats where they are let down.

Graham.

Graham.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 23, 2011, 02:03 PM:

Graham - despite being equipped with Eikis, that's one B&H I'd like to have, especially as I'd like one with an easy change to 18fps, which I know is possible. I missed a good one on eBay because I was concerned about the worm gear situation, but then just after the auction someone on the 16mm Forum said that B&H had rectified the problem by the time at least some of these were produced.
As I'm interested in getting one for 18fps, I wondered if they normally have a 2 or 3 bladed shutter?

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on April 23, 2011, 03:57 PM:

I have changed worm gears on many B & H machines. The TQIII was by far the most straight forward to work on. However, ask anyone who knows their B & H machines, including Steve from Derann's 16mm dept, who said that the best machine is the TQ1.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 23, 2011, 07:04 PM:

Adrian

The first 16mm projector I owned back in the early 90s was the B/H 642 manual threading and I really liked it. The 642 had a three bladed shutter. I gave it away "big mistake" and I understand from the person that got it that it was a good machine for home movie film transfer work.

Anyway, here is some B/H advertising from the past, also look out for an article from "Movie Maker" Sept 1981, written by Francis Williams called "B/H Through The Ages" in fact it would be an excellent reprint for the FFTC magazine.

Graham.

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on April 23, 2011, 09:45 PM:

always liked my Bell & Howell 631 UK made unit in the wooden blimp, old as the hills but runs well and has a variable apature plate, and a nice tube amplifier.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on April 24, 2011, 07:49 PM:

I recommend an EIKI SNT/B&H 3585 (same machine).
It is a trouble-free auto-load. My one and only 16mm projector.

I've never had one, but I've been told to stay clear of the EIKI slot-loads since they can damage film if you are not extremely careful.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on April 25, 2011, 08:57 PM:

What is the equivelant U.S. number to the B&H 642?

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on April 25, 2011, 10:18 PM:

A 1680 slot loader? What year was it manufactured? Does anyone know? I alway thought slot loader B&H units started with 2500 series models. That's what I love about forums like this - new discoveries every day!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 26, 2011, 08:24 PM:

The year of intoduction for the 1680 was 1976. The other B/H 1680 slot loader I have is green in colour and has a broken worm, however other that the projector ran fine. I have no idea when the dark colour B/H "1680 GS" the one in the photo came out I guess it was a much later model.

The B/H 642 came out in 1962 and had a 240v l000watt lamp I think I used a 750watt at the time I used it. Those projectors could and were modified to take the mirror type tungsten halogen lamp. I remember reading about it somewhere [Roll Eyes]

One of the reasons I gave it away was the amps it drew just for the lamp "it was like a mini heater" [Eek!]

and nowhere as efficient as the more modern tungsten halogen lamp, not sure those old lamps are still available.

Graham.

Posted by Norman Allan (Member # 2410) on May 01, 2011, 06:16 AM:

I just acquired an old B&H 643 without a lamp and I had no idea whether it took a 110v or 250v lamp so I just took a chance and found a 250v 1000w one like this on e bay. Mine only cost £5
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-x-Osram-Projector-Lamp-A1-207-240v-1000W-New-Bx17-/400208372059?pt=UK_Photography_VintagePhotography_VintagePhotoAccessories&hash=item5d2e47215

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on May 01, 2011, 07:04 AM:

I am fortunate enough to have received full training from an ex-B & H engineer living close by. I've worked on all models of B & H eplacing worm-drives etc. The TQI 655 is the best model, possibly the easiest to service. The TQII is the worst (even the B & H reps said this!) but they more than made up for this with the TQIII. Elf machines are okay but not as refined as any B & H machine. They are far more fine adjustments for the engineer to take advantage of on a B & H...there are very few on the Elf.

Posted by Norman Allan (Member # 2410) on May 01, 2011, 11:59 AM:

You are a very fortunate fellow indeed Mr McConway. I have just fallen in at the deep end and find it a very steep learning curve. The complexity of the machines is quite something but luckily both my B&H's have good worm gear.

Away back in the mists of time my father worked for a mobile cinema firm and they used nothing but Bell & Howell 16mm projectors up until their demise in 1970.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2