8mm Forum: Faded prints to vs

This is topic Faded prints to vs in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 07:02 AM:

I bought a collection of faded features last year and now they have all got a vinegar smell and are buckling up so i am having to dump them . Is this what happens to all faded prints ? My be thats why there are so many spools for sale on ebay ? maybe as the years roll on we will end up with projectors and spools every where but no film . does 8mm go the same way ?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 07:06 AM:

No Polyester film can suffer from VS Keith.
LPP and Agfa Polyester film will be good for many more decades to come yet, without any significant fade.

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 08:14 AM:

You hope .. I have some nice green agfa and fuji prints LPP is ok as long as you don't try and clean the film and it is getting older its come off easy in the cleaning cloth when using filmguard and film shield .Good job most of my collection is in black and white

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 08:16 AM:

Green? [Confused]

Colour or print coming off in the cloth???

Sorry I'm really not with you Keith. [Confused]

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 08:18 AM:

Green as in the colour they have got a green tint

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 08:19 AM:

I've never ever seen that sorry Keith.

Pink, red...or even brownish fading, yes.

Green, never???

All my own later Agfa prints still look like the day they were made from a colour standpoint.
Same for the LPP ones I have.

I have seen Fuji ones age with a slight purple cast to the overall colour also, but never green. Not so far at least anyhow and to be honest, that's the first I've ever heard of that one.

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 08:22 AM:

O you are lucky then I also have a very good orange print of Oceans eleven on lpp

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 08:24 AM:

What gauge are we talking here Keith?
Are these prints on acetate stock?

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 08:58 AM:

16mm film

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 09:02 AM:

Acetate Keith, for the Orange and green Agfa or Fuji / LPP ones?

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 09:06 AM:

LPP

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 09:15 AM:

Yes Keith but is the stock base Acetate or Polyester?

If it's Acetate this may perhaps go some way as to understanding why you are experiencing the colour coming off the print when you are cloth cleaning them using Filmguard if this is due to the onset of VS.

If these LPP prints are printed onto a polyester base, I'd have no idea why or how your prints could be turning to green or orange casts or also why some of the colour would be coming away from your films and onto your cloth as the base material cannot chemically degrade like Acetate can.

[ May 20, 2017, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Keith Wilson (Member # 4888) on May 20, 2017, 01:02 PM:

All my 16mm prints are Acetate apart from a few L&H shorts
I just wondered if VS has anything to do with colour fade ?
Has any one had a good colour film with VS
and some of my B/W films that have warped , twist left to right when it comes of the spool have no VS and have been like that for 30+ years I have owned them and I thought that was the first signs
may be there is no way of knowing ?? when your film will get VS

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 20, 2017, 01:26 PM:

The fading process and VS associated with acetate film base degradation, are not connected in any way Keith, I believe.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on May 20, 2017, 07:52 PM:

Keith - interesting to hear of your green 16mm Agfa prints, as I have one myself! It's a print of 'Tommy' that I've been reluctant to part with, but there's so little colour other than green that I never run it.

But when it comes to VS, my experience is the opposite of yours, as the colour films I've owned that have been afflicted by VS have all been low fade prints with great colour. I wondered if his is a coincidence and in fact someone posting on a well known 16mm Forum, with extensive knowledge of VS, has made a good case for chemical factors meaning that low fade prints are more prone to VS. But this is a much more significant issue for 16mm collectors than it is for Super 8 ones, particularly because, as Andrew has mentioned, polyester prints are immune to it.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 21, 2017, 02:28 AM:

Talking of green prints. On super 8 we have the 400ft cinevision print of born free. This has a definate greenish look to it. Recently we bought a second copy which although slightly better is also greenish. I,ll pop up some screenshots later in the week.
Many years ago we had a rare out takes reel from the tv series cannon, this was pure green and went back for a refund. Never seen this on any other titles though.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 21, 2017, 04:24 AM:

Thing is, these were printed this way Tom im betting, not perfect colour to begin with then turning green over time.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 21, 2017, 05:22 AM:

I am very surprised that some members have experienced discolouration with 16mm Agfa prints. I have never had any trouble with my many Agfa prints, their colour remaining excellent.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 21, 2017, 08:11 AM:

But what base material Maurice?
And are yours in breathable boxes or tightly sealed tin cans? (Etc etc)

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 21, 2017, 09:49 AM:

An easy question for you to ask, Andrew; but impossible for me to answer accurately.
I have around 2500 films of which there are probably 1500 on 16mm. I have various lists but no references to film stock, although most of my 16mm Technicolor copies are indicated.
Films are kept in cans, metal & plastic. Also in cardboard cartons.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 21, 2017, 10:46 AM:

Blimey Maurice, thats not a private collection, thats a national film archive! [Big Grin]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on May 21, 2017, 11:24 AM:

Historically, 16mm acetate prints on Agfa have been considered low-fade, though my own experience is that they can become less vibrant. We certainly don't get the prints turning pink or red, as we do with Eastman.
Generally speaking, with any stock, the appearance of VS alongside fade would have to be coincidental.

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on May 21, 2017, 03:44 PM:

It's actually quite simple (unfortunately).
Every print made prior to 1982 (except IB Tech, Kodachrome) is faded or will fade...
The Kodak/Eastman ones: red/brown/pink
The Fuji prints: become purplish
The Agfa ones: fade gently, colors become less saturated, like a TV set with the color turned halfway down.
Between 1982-1984 there is the switch to low fade. Kodak introduced LPP in 1982 and by 1984 also Fuji and Agfa prints were considered low fade.

The film base acetate or estar or polyester has no impact on color fade. But of course acetate prints can develop VS.
There is also no correlation between color fade and VS... On the 16mm forum there have already been reports of beautiful LPP prints getting VS...

When prints turn strange colors, like orange LPP prints, green Agfa ones etc... This is in most cases due to bad lab work...

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 21, 2017, 03:53 PM:

2.500 films, Maurice ! Waw...

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on May 21, 2017, 04:19 PM:

I have close on 7000 films features and shorts on 16mm and over 80 projectors

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 21, 2017, 04:50 PM:

David, you're a model for all of us [Big Grin]

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