This is topic Blu-ray.What do you think of it?. in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on October 17, 2007, 09:48 AM:
So fellow members.What do you think of this new format?.Love to hear yuor views on this front.Andy.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 17, 2007, 10:42 AM:
We have reached the levels that we reached with audio about 15 years ago...

That is, 15 years ago, we reached the sonic quality level that is so crisp and perfect that the human ear cannot even tell anymore, which leads me to say, why go beyond?

Now, with blue ray disc, we have reached that same level visually, (literally). Fortunately, Blue ray players can play regular DVD's as well, so we won't have to trash the DVD's eventually.

But once again, why bother with higher and higher technology? DVD's will already be passe after only approximetely ten or eleven years. Blue Ray? Five or less, as we are getting dangerously close to the point of downloading blue ray quality films from the studio's directly for a price, which is the next logical step.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 17, 2007, 12:48 PM:
I am holding off on buying any high defintion DVD until things settle down. Until they start(if ever) seriously releasing all the classic movies in high-def I have little interest anyway, since 90% of my viewing are the movies of Hollywoods golden age and I rarely purchase DVD's of modern films. And a year or so from now, you will be able to buy a blu-ray DVD player for less than $100.00. Five years from now the DVD may be extinct anyway, with movies being sold on memory sticks. At that point, the last mechanical link in movie projection will be broken and the medium will be truly all electronic.
Which makes the preservation and showing of films and film equipment all the more special.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 17, 2007, 04:22 PM:
Hi Paul, I have a friend who has bought older stuff on HD DVD the Toshiba format and he says that many are more or less no better than the DVDs as the old films are only so good and I expect they have just put old transfers used for DVD or even goodness help us VHS ( seen that a lot on DVD) and made no real effort or simply it can`t be made. So theres little point putting them on HD DVD or Blue Ray unless you want to put 10 or so on one disc, thats an option I suppose.
I think ordinary DVD will still be around for many many years and sales are boomin for ordinary DVD`s and ordianry players compared to HD DVD/BR and Joe Public will for a long while prefer a dvd at half or much less than that even over BR etc.
Mind you I have heard BR is amazing and projected absolutely stunning especially on a HD projector like 3d almost like looking at the real thing!!! or top notch 35mm.
The idea of a memory stick for a film or just a box( hard drive) full of films fills me with dread, how flippin boring so I imagine come what may there will be some format survive that you can collect more tangiably on.
Hec people still buy Betamax tapes second hand and DVD is infinately more long lived so if Beta can survive 25 years surely even ordinary DVD will do far longer( if we`re all still here, he said looking to next November and hoping to goodness!!!! ) etc.
I hear they are now working on dual format players, LG and the like to do HD and BR, but you have to wonder how on earth they let themselves get into this daft fix as its keeping most people well and truly on the fence.
I have to admit BR is tempting me seriously nearly bought First Blood the other day and no player even and one of our most reliable film dealers does them too now and at very fair prices too but I have to say the couple or 3 nice little Derann top notch super 8 trailers I have coming in the next week or so are exciting me more than any roundey disc will ever, I can`t help it.
Best Mark.
PS Andy did you get my mail.
Posted by Brian Hendel (Member # 61) on October 17, 2007, 07:05 PM:
I couldn't decide which High Def DVD format to go with so I purchased the one and only player that plays HD DVD's and Blu-Ray. It's made by LG, model number BH100. I have to report that I couldn't be happier with this machine. It's hard for me to watch regular definition DVD's at this point. I just watched Bram Stoker's Dracula and Halloween and the detail is just breathtaking - even on a 96" wide screen. There are more and more back catalogue titles being available and the prices will be coming down very soon. Plus, both formats are available from Netflix so it couldn't be better. I know people are down on video projection here, but I have to say I couldn't live without my films, or my high def video system. They co-exist beautifully together in my home theater.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 18, 2007, 04:06 AM:
Hi Brian are you watching those on a HD projector or on one with HDMI in at least or just a usual propjector in through s-video or 3 colours please.
My philips is 4/3 but reckons its 1080 compatable in some way !!!!!!! I use s-video for dvds in but it does ahve the 3 colours in you can use.
What I was realy wondering was if you watch the 2 new formats even just through old equipment, say usual 32" TV and usual scart or those older projector connections is there still an amazing difference.
I think you need one of those Brian as isn`t there some stuff you can only get HD and some BR.
Best Mark.
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 18, 2007, 04:23 AM:
DVD is unlikely to last as long as video tape. Tape is analog and therefore something will play off it for a long time. DVD by contrast is digital and as soon as something starts to break down on it that will be it.

In fact, didn't 'smallformat' run an article all about this recently. Some DVD's in German libraries are already unplayable. It's not particularly significant yet but is an extreme concern to the archivists.

As the latest generation of video discs use the same CD type disc they will no doubt suffer the same problems. Although I did hear rumours of a new LPP HD DVD...
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on October 18, 2007, 05:46 AM:
At this early stage Brian is on the right track with the duel machine. Blu-Ray seems to be winning the studio war with titles, but it is still too early to tell.

You'd all recall the Beta v's VHS battle, well I had to contend with the Dolby Digital, DTS, SDDS digital sound battle in cinemas. I supervised a circuit of several hundred screens.

Early on we backed the Dolby Digital system and even though we had some DTS and SDDS sytems installed thankfully Dolby passed the amount of DTS systems installed world-wide.

All three systems are still out there and most 35mm prints have all formats included, but I can tell you it was a big call back then. We went with Dolby as it was non-studio aligned so quickly had support from all the major studios. SDDS was Columbia and DTS Universal so you could see straight away that a neutral player had an advantage.

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on October 18, 2007, 07:01 AM:
As I have often said to people.Stop trying to the first to adopt the latest technology.Why? Because within a short space of time it will be obsolete and you will be broke or go mad in trying to keep up.
Buying a good quality base player/recorder of your choice and leave it at that.I mean,my DVD Recorder is now two years old [Confused] so it must be crap by now.
Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on October 18, 2007, 11:33 AM:
Interesting view there fellow members.I have a Sony S 300 BLU-RAY player.I'm impressed with it,but my TV,also a Sony,on the HDMI cable,gives me a ghosting effect.Maybe this HD ready tv's aint all its cracked up to be.This is the new format,but for how long?.Andy.
p.s.five years is about right.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 18, 2007, 09:57 PM:
That is the problem with many a new format these days. Laserdiscs, while primitive by todays standards, were quite durable. I remember seeing aguy demonstrate just how durable they were, putting ink marker, all kinds of other little things on it, and the damned thing played!

But DVD's you barely leave it on a surface for a minute, and you can end up with an annoying scratch that can screw up your film watching. Fortunately, i have been careful with mine and they all play like new, even after ten years.

Now a film, scratch it up, still plays, (even looks good on a black and white silent film, hee hee), break the film splice it, play it again. Hell, the thing fades, it still plays.

Lamp burns out, curse all creation until you buy another.
Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on October 19, 2007, 09:43 AM:
Very good points there Osi.But Blu ray is very well protected again the points you have made.Dvd is a pain in the butt when you cant play the bloody thing because of marks etc.Blu ray has a protivce coating to prevent this happing.Andy.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 19, 2007, 10:22 AM:
Do they really. I didn`t know that, makes sense and good news.
I think I will have to take the plunge before long, funds allowing( but they usually don`t).
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on October 19, 2007, 01:32 PM:
Remeber everyone.The bullshite we herad about CD's when they came out.With Blu ray theres no fade,any surface marks,it will still play.Myadvice is that this is the NEW format to replace DVD'S.Notei didnt say cine,It really is up to Mr. Joe Public.Andy.
Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on October 20, 2007, 04:49 PM:
I recently bought an HD-DVD player ( a Toshiba E1) as it had dropped to £179, from its original price of double that.
I've connected it it via component cables to a Sony vpl-vw10 projector with a 7 foot screen.
I would never have bought it had I not seen the quality on a friend's projector of HD-DVD. Apparently Blu-ray and HD-DVD are about the same quality wise. For sound I use a Yamaha DSP-A1 amp.
I'm very pleased with the significant increase in picture quality over standard dvd. The transfer of Peter Jackson's 'King Kong' is superb. When I watched it, I didn't think 'Wow, this is brilliant quality!'
I thought 'Blimey, I can't see anything wrong with this'
It's like being in a well set up cinema, with the added advantage of not having some neanderthal rustling popcorn in your ear.
I watched 'Grand Prix' in hd and was stunned that a movie from the 60's could look so good. We're starting to see some classics appearing in the format now - which is great.
I could hold off to see what happens in the format war - but I'd rather have the benefit of good quality at a price that I can afford, without the worry of the picture turning pink or the smell of vinegar in my nostrils. I love film - and the smell of a new print straight from the lab will always bring back great memories - but we need to move with the times and enjoy the benefits of new technologies.
So, enjoy pristine transfers with excellent sound.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2007, 10:52 PM:
"We need to move with the times, and enjoy the benefits of new technologies"

I'm sure you thought of this Alan, but keeping up with best of modern technology is not why we are members of the forum or collectors of celluloid.

Hell, if I was practical, the money that I'll be paying for a certain film from a member of the forum I could easily use to buy a blue ray disc player, but it's not about being practical.

Yes, blue ray will no doubt have an image that probably looks just as good as the 35MM or 70MM master that it has been taken from, and it certianly out does my little Super 8mm images ...

But it has no magic ...

and that's the whole thing!

In the comedy show "Father Ted", Mrs. Doyle finds out that there is a modern tea maker, (she's the housekeeper), and the salesman states ...

"This modern machine takes all the misery out of the tea making process."

Mrs. Doyle gives a very dirty scowl at the salesman and replies:

"Maybe I like the misery!"

It's just that. I like the inconvenience of the reels, cleaning the films for the 20th time, buying slightly over-priced lamps, rewinding and sometimes suffering thru a somewhat blurry print of a film that would look pristine on blue Ray. It's not for the technical perfection that I'm in the film collecting hobby.

and just that magic, of cranking up the Eumig, rolling down that massive screen, kicking back on the couch with love of my life, (wife) and watching the enchanted flicker from the lamp.

Come to think of it, I'll do that now!
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 21, 2007, 07:15 AM:
Hi Osi I agree on that and the true fun fiddle nature of the real stuff etc.
But I do think on here we will need to embrace and accept that Blue Ray etc and video projection brings a wonderful film watching experiance to us and also especiaslly to others not least children who for the last 25 years on the whole have been missing out on the home big screen experiance and it can be enjoyed in many forms.
Although I do VP I love film, but I will admit its a constant struggle to stay with it for me ( mainly due to being skint ) but I really do love it so much.
Down to mainly just doing trailers now but always my first film love anyway but I think in this small and friendly forum we have soemthing quite special and unique in terms of the small and friendly group of us and a feeling you know people and feel them as friends etc. its a rare thing on the massive web etc.
Thats mainly due to super 8 and real film pullling us all togther here but I think part of holding us together and keeping interest going and getting others involved we need to be careful not to be too secular if you will.
I for one would love to see/hear peoples experiances of HD HVD and Blue Ray, reports on players and dics reviews too.
How about a few of those Andy ????
And all of this in the spirit of film watching and sharing with the added bonus of being held togter in the middle by the love of real proper film.
Watching and enjoying is what its all about.
Best Mark.
Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on October 21, 2007, 10:26 AM:

I for one would love to see/hear peoples experiances of HD HVD and Blue Ray, reports on players and dics reviews too.
I agree with you, but isn't that already happening? Surely the point of the "yak" section is that people can (and do) discuss non - film specific topics, DVD and video is often amongst them.

I think in truth, the majority of people that read and contribute to this forum are also Digital Users, we are not green to the benefits of the digital medium, the excellant picture and sound quality, the convenience, cheapness and availability of the discs, but, the people on here all have a love of film in common which is what binds us together.

That DVD in which ever of it's guises is better or worse than cine, simply shouldn't be an issue, because it doesn't matter. Try telling a keen cyclist that it's quicker and more comfortable to get to work by car, or a compulsive knitter that they can buy better jumpers at half the cost and with no hassle on the high street, they'll probably look at you side ways and say "you've missed the point".

So lets not let ourselves miss the point on here, DVD or Cine, which is better? It doesn't matter, it's about what you enjoy and if the other guy doesn't like it, well that doesn't matter either because it's up to him to find his pleasure where he wants too. [Wink]

Mike [Smile]
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 21, 2007, 02:04 PM:
Good points Mike,

I will no doubt get into Blue ray one of these days. Blue ray players play regular DVD's I hear. Do they play all region DVD's, the blue Ray players, or will we have to go thru the crap that we went thru with DVD players and foreign countries?

But i will always be true to Super 8mm!
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 21, 2007, 02:40 PM:
I Agree with what you say too Mike. I just thought it was worth saying we don`t have to be worried by its being mentioned and enjoyed on here.
One thing is for sure BR, HD DVD etc will come and it will go, people will enjoy films on it as they watch them but even collecting dvds is a bit hollow compared to film collecting I think.
There are formats that will always have more fun and interest to offer.
Film of course. Vinyl, Reel to Reel tapes,Books, Real Art etc. Its usuallly the newer "easier" "better" things like tape cassetes, CD`s, video/DVD that lack a bit of soul as we have said many times before on here.
Theres one thing for sure we who end up on here or similarly efilm or 16mm film talk etc are the ones who were hooked and ensnared by cine`s charm that wasn`t really about the watching of the film alone. Just film watchers have fallen by the wayside regarding cine but we happy ragged band are well and trully stuck with its, pleasures . frustrations, joys and all.
On BR Osi some of the early ones were region free but I beleive they have now moved to some form of region coding!!!! crackers etc.
I was told HD DVD is still region free but can anyone confirm that.
One thing is for sure having the two go head to head with the ensuing confusion for the public, their commercial bribes and deals etc to put one over the other is stiffling it all.
If just one had come out properly now, moved to much more affordable machines and better value discs it would be flying as it is its having a job to get off the ground compared to standard DVDs still huge and growing success!!!!!! which is just getting stronger and stronger apparently!!!!
I still think a bloomin good dvd well done and an effort made with a good transfer etc is fine for the home even projected.
Its a shame they didn`t just go with the slightly better dvd that was mooted.Some ordinary DVDs are superb.
I do hear mind once you get BR or HD there is no going back to DVD for some people!!!!
Best Mark.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on October 21, 2007, 06:53 PM:
For those getting ready to buy HD-DVD or BluRay, note that BluRay is MUCH higher quality than HD-DVD. What confuses people is that they say "but they are both 1080"...yet the HD-DVD system uses much more compression than the BluRay, which leads to blocky images and motion artifacting. You may not notice it in the Circuit City demo, but once you see it, you can't NOT notice it.

I have seen Blu-Ray projected through professional commercial 3 chip DLP units with TI's "dark chip" and it was quite impressive. The very low end of these machines are $40,000 right now, but given another 5 years they will be under $5000 easily. Using other video projectors requires scaling and won't necessarily give you a final picture any better than a regular DVD. The same is true for most tv monitors out there.

Regardless, buy the combo LG unit, or stick with BluRay. Buying an HD-DVD player is pretty much like investing in Betamax. It won't be around in the long run. [Wink]
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 21, 2007, 08:16 PM:
I think I read HD is 30 Giga Bites of storage B,Ray 50 GB so on that footing you would think BR had the edge.
Best Mark.
Gor Blimey I`ve just read theres a 3rd HD format coming out HD VMD with players set to be £150 and the discs cheaper too.
It just gets worse !!!!! hand me the derann catalogue please.
Saying that just been reading up on it and its a UK based comapnay mooting it, the qaulity os between HD DVD and BR and its ten times cheaper to make the decks etc as essentially the same as dvd and red lazer, if ony this came out before BR etc.
The discs can hold a ton of stuff and much cheaper to make.
The new players coming out are just £119 and as they are essentially dvd players theres no real risk to buying them and apprently have elss gremlins than the other first two.
AS I say its just what we could have done with before the BR HD fiasco. The HD VMD does MP3 cd all the usual dvd player stuff too.
I hope it takes right off.
Best Mark.
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on October 22, 2007, 08:27 AM:
Perhaps having a media business here in the UK I can throw in my two bob.

When we started out producing video programmes it was VHS that gave us excellent tolerance compatibility across the board and a VHS tape recorded from one machine would happily play in just about every one else’s, unless tape or equipment proved faulty obviously. Starting DVD media authoring in the early days and then duplication I have to say reliability of software and even media has proven disappointing to say the least. More of this seems in store for us troubled folk who have to deliver our video productions on those new Blu thingy’s as to date the software to create media leaves much to be desired and even worse we are starting to see compatibility issues as we did some years ago when we all started creating DVD’S for our customers.

Today production of DVD media has stabilised and we are able to produce very good quality 16:9 DVD’S on dual layer discs ensuring a very high quality result, so much so that a clip from such a production I was involved in filming was shown on BBC TV a few weeks ago via dual layer DVD. This particular production was filmed in HD obviously, but it does prove that DVD dual layer can stand it even for broadcast.

I can’t help but feel HD DVD or Blu whatsit is a little unnecessary and as always it all boils down to keeping the electronics market buoyant with new products. You will always find someone wanting to have the latest to impress perhaps and I have been up that road before myself in years past.

For the present we are continuing filming in HD and delivering our productions on dual layer DVD which is adequate. I personally feel the HD Blu-ray side of things will be a slow starter as seems to be the case and I would not rush out to buy the latest in any shape or form for a good couple of years. Better perhaps to invest in high quality cables, a good DVD player or recorder and a good 16:9 box to view.

All this is from the viewpoint of producing programmes. If you are a large screen film collector the viewpoint may be a different one perhaps, but its worth bearing in mind that some of the so called HD media movies now knocking around are merely produced from old electronic masters and not digitally produced throughout from a film original.

For what its worth that is what I think of the new technology.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 22, 2007, 10:24 AM:
Hey Lee!

I heard that "Slipstream" (1989, Mark Hamill), was released in the UK on DVD and it's a very high quality transfer. It's of course, region 2. Will that play on my "region free" (supposedly all region) player here in america?

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on October 22, 2007, 10:52 AM:
Osi. If you have a region free player it should play OK. Best try a cheap region 2 first to make certain though.
Best wishes.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 23, 2007, 08:37 AM:
Does your TV or projector handle Pal Osi, thats the main question or if not does your multi region player alter pal to NTCS.
Many of the( especially cheaper ) multi region dvd players here turn NTSC into pal and do a good job too.
Best Mark.
PS the region thing will be fine.
PPS am I right thinking that film with Mark was filmed in the North in the UK, but I may be thinking of another one.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 23, 2007, 10:51 AM:
I know that "Slipstream" was a UK film release, but I think it was mostly filmed in New Zealand.

This film has been widely available on DVD in america, but it was from a rather worn video copy and looked horrible. The UK release of this film is in the letterboxed format, (not the full scope of it's original release, but then, many films are released theatrically in different formats.) with a great Dolby stereo soundtrack. I think it is taken from the 2001 Laserdisc release from Japan, (one of the last official laserdisc releases), and transfered from that.

At any rate, it will probably be awhile until this specific version is released in america, AND I WANNIT NOW!!

Back on topic now ...

I would caution fellow forum members not to make the mistake of funding a move to Blu-Ray, by ravaging they're film collections.
I made that major mistake about twenty years ago, and got back into the Super 8 hobby about four years ago and with my advanced years now, I have the wisdom to at least hold onto me one true love, over the "format of the month/year."
Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on October 27, 2007, 09:14 AM:
An excellent article can be found at the High-Def DIgest pointing out some of the misconceptions that have found their way into this thread concerning the picture quality of one format over another :

Having used both for just over a year now, I have seen there is NO difference in quality between the two HD disc formats. If you are to choose one format vs another studio support for a particular format is far more likely to influence your decision than anything else.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on October 28, 2007, 01:44 PM:
Look at the compression artifacts Robert. HD-DVD is much more noticeable.

Then again you may NOT want to look for them. It's like reel change cues. Once you see them, you can't ever NOT see them.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 29, 2007, 06:00 PM:
Interesting link Robert.

Actually, I bought the "Fith Element:Ultimate edition" on DVD, and even this version is a very good improvement on the original DVD release, (love the extras!)

I think that what it REALLY comes down to, is, which format will survive, and which one will go the way of beta?
I believe that blu-ray will be the winner, and I'll wait for the players to go down on price. At least I know that blu rays play regular DVDs.
Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on November 23, 2007, 11:31 AM:
Rember too Osi that BLU-RAY is 24fps frmat,not 25fps,like standed Dvds or video tape.Sounds good to me for pulse/sync.Andy.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 23, 2007, 03:04 PM:
Hi Andy good to see you back, how about some reviews and whats on in extras etc.
Best Mark.
Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on November 23, 2007, 03:09 PM:
Hey Andy

Good to see you're still checking in, the forum's a little quieter without you...

Mike [Cool]
Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on November 23, 2007, 03:19 PM:
Osi, HD-DVD players also play regular dvds and most will also play compact discs. In fact, one of the reasons Toshiba pushed so hard for their format was that it enabled existing manufacturing plants to produce HD discs with relatively simple modifications to their equipment, while Blu-Ray replicators have to install all-new ( and expensive ) equipment.

Brad, please elaborate on these artifacts you are seeing. I have been reading four or five major video forums for years now and one of the few things I DON"T see is any fighting that one format has any significant picture quality difference over another, especially from reviewers who compare those titles which are available on both formats. People fight about everything else, but those of us who have both formats do not see any major difference between the two. What equipment are you running ?
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 23, 2007, 04:18 PM:
Consumer Reports here in the USA just completed a test comparison of HD DVD versus Blu Ray, and concluded there was absolutely no difference in HD picture quality.

But HD DVD players did a better job of upscaling standard resolution DVD's, and Sony is still trying to get all the Blu Ray extra functions to work properly. Also HD DVD players and discs are much cheaper than Blu Ray.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 29, 2007, 07:38 PM:
I really don't know which to invest in, honestly. I am debating buying a few blu-ray discs, but the question kind of comes down to if there are any films that you really want to see in HD or blu-ray.

One thing is for sure, HDTV is of course coming and in fact here.

Honestly, it could be a mere couple of years until bought discs disappear altogether and were downloading everything!!!

Awww ... all those poor people who have to buy the latest technology so that they can get that perfect look of the film grain ....


LONG LIVE SUPER 8MM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 30, 2007, 06:43 AM:
Hi yes I was reading an article about this that both formats may actually be overtaken by HD downloads and streaming, sky etc etc so end up not quite as big as expected and likely ordinary DVD will remaim very very strong after all.But I do think blue ray will get very strong of the two.
I was watching band of brothers 8 feet wide on usual dvd via my old video projector the other night and honestly the qaulity was awesome, I really don`t think I need any better than that. Never seen even 16mm look like that so where do you need to go from there.
Ive been tempted by Blue ray but as I still can`t help buying real film, even just trailers, I simply can`t afford it really.
I did get a new dvd player for £25 a few months ago with progresive scan and 12 bit decoding etc and its brilliant, what more could you need. Saying that I think in the new year I will go Blue Ray as the temptations are getting stronger.
The VMD HD format really would have been the way to go using upgraded more layer red dvds and keeping all the costs down and supporting all previous media but I don`t expect that will take off as no backing though it may do in asia etc.
Best Mark.
By the way PF one of our film dealers is doing great value BR discs now.

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