8mm Forum: Death Knell of HD-DVD?

This is topic Death Knell of HD-DVD? in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000745

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 05, 2008, 01:40 PM:

Warner Brothers announced Friday that they are no longer going to release movies on HD-DVD, and will market exclusively in standard definition DVD and Blu-Ray;

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-01-04-warner-brothers-blu-ray_N.htm

Could this be the end of the HD-DVD format?

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on January 05, 2008, 02:26 PM:

thats interesting paul,here in the uk,i recently noticed our small local branch of woolworth actually having a few blu ray titles in stock,but no hd.
the local blockbuster rental store also has blu ray only,and the local supermarket is selling the toshiba hd player for just over half the original price,though it may be an old model.
it does seem though that blu ray is gaining on hd.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 05, 2008, 09:08 PM:

The fact that they are putting the HD-DVD players at half price means that the stores must have inside info on something being dis-continued, and hoping that the public doesn't know the same.

Besides that, you can buy a BLU-RAY player in the form of a PSP-3 game player at half the price of a standard BLU - RAY player.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 05, 2008, 10:34 PM:

What?

A video format barely being established and quickly becoming obsolete?

-Astounding!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on January 06, 2008, 01:53 AM:

Sounds like Beta and VHS all over again, when DVD came out it was "Warner Brothers" that led the way releasing many of there titles, soon after other studios were to follow, I guess the same is happening now, pity for those that have bought into it, no use having the player and not the films. [Frown]

Graham.

PS. Has anyone seen "Blu-Ray" in action?, been wondering what it might be like connected to the latest Panasonic VP, or LCD tv.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 06, 2008, 04:13 AM:

I am told that Blu-Ray discs are not region coded.

Is this correct?

Maurice

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 06, 2008, 05:23 AM:

Some are Maurice and spme aren`t, apparently there can be playback issues and gremlins regarding the java script thing with blue ray and other things to.
I`m interested however I still think good ordinary dvd is brilliant and I read a couple of months ago ordinary dvd is still steaming ahead in terms of popularity, its a real shame the VMD HD format is so poorly backed as that would have been far better really more of a progression rather than a forward side step.
Best Mark.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on January 06, 2008, 05:36 AM:

Amazing Super 8 is still here then eigh lads.

Graham. My dad is still recording Betamax on his Hi-Fi stereo machine and it delivers a decent picture even yet. When all were going VHS dad & I purchased a number of the stereo machines and these have kept dad going on Beta. After all these years the tapes seemed to have held up very well if well stored.

Happy Beta day.

Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on January 06, 2008, 07:37 AM:

...and only last year Warner announced it was to release it's titles in the TOTAL HD disc format. "What's that?" I hear you say [Eek!]

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9676225-5.html

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 06, 2008, 08:18 AM:

I think the problem is that there isnt a big enough gap between standard DVD and High defination (unlike the tape versus disc). For myself Im still happy with standard DVD and all the benefits it offers like special features, and I dont see buying blu-ray just for a slightly better picture as most films I watch are old anyway and not likely to come out in blu-ray for quite some time.

However a Blu-Ray recorder I would be interested in [Razz]

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on January 06, 2008, 08:56 AM:

Graham.
Panasonic are bringing out a new range of Blu-Ray stand alone recorders so we have been told by our Pana rep. The usual black box design and a high starting price, better wait a few years for it to stabilise though as the technology is going to be very new and prob full of bugged software as in the first DVD recorder offering from Pana years ago.

Keep that Elmo going.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 06, 2008, 11:18 AM:

It would be excellent if the HD/Blu-Ray war could end this quickly so we can have one format and move on; there should never have been two formats to begin with.

If 'Joe Average' can't tell the difference between HiDef and regular, he must be looking at some pretty poorly set up displays or simply not be paying attention.
Physics don't lie: twice the resolution, run through component or HDMI cables, makes for an image quite improved over conventional 525/625 (upscaled or not.)

What does create some silliness is cable in this transition period. Example:

I have a 27-inch regular TV. The cable shows, say, a channel in 16-by-9, with masking top and bottom. That's fine. Now, the program the channel is showing is shot in 'regular' format, so within the 16-by-9 frame, the square image is masked on the sides.

Now, to really get crazy, the 'regular' program featured is showing 16-by-9 footage which has been masked top-and-bottom AGAIN, so the end result is a picture about 25% smaller than my screen, surrounded by thick black borders on all sides.
I see this on a pretty regular basis. Ah well, this too shall pass...I watch so little TV as it is that it really doesn't matter to me. But a HiDef player I will wait for.

Best,
Claus.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 06, 2008, 01:23 PM:

Claus,

Im not saying I cant tell the difference between Hi Def and Standard as I probably could. In truth Ive never looked at a Hi Defination picture ever and compared them. What I am saying is that I am happy with a standard image for now and still enjoy it 110% and will only change when it becomes very affordable.

For me the most important thing is the enjoyment factor and you dont need a super duper projector to enjoy a film or TV programme.

Graham S

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 06, 2008, 01:33 PM:

Graham,

Fully agree there; otherwise I would never listen to 78s anymore.
As for the price factor, I am waiting myself. No need to spend 3 times more just to have it 6 months earlier.

Best,
Claus.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 06, 2008, 01:58 PM:

Personally I have very little motivation to jump on the HD/Blue-ray bandwagon right now. Most of the DVD's that I buy are from the classic period of Hollywood movies, 1930's thru 1950's, and it remains to be seen if any of these will be any better in HD/Blue ray than they are in standard defintion DVD (I doubt it), or indeed if many of them will ever get released at all in HD. Like Graham, I am totally satisfied anyway with standard DVD, which for the most part leaves very little to be desired in terms of picture and sound quality. I think 95% of the general public feel the same way, and I think high definition DVD is going to have a hard time becoming mainstream.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 06, 2008, 02:15 PM:

Most DVD's you buy nowadays have excellent picture quality in terms of colour, contrast and sharpness and I dont see HD DVD being that much better. And like Paul, classic films could take years to appear on HD and will look much the same. Can you imagine Laurel and Hardy's being improved by HD [Roll Eyes]

.

Another technology which I feel is having a hard time is Digital Radio as FM is pretty good and DAB digital radio is not that bigger leap in terms of quality. But eventually the analogue transmitters might be turned off.

Graham S

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 06, 2008, 07:08 PM:

I agree about standard DVD. They came out with a "deluxe deluxe" edition of "It's A Wonderful Life", (with just about the same extras) and the picture was supposed to be a hi-def transfer of the original camera negative (which was used for the earlier 40th anniversary edition, which was also restored)

... and I saw almost no difference. Slight highlights, but not enough to make a real difference.

Besides, we literally have as close to film as we can get already in DVD. Not quite, but just about.

It's like with audio, (and I know I've mentioned this before), we have reached the point where the clarity of sound
is beyond what the human ear can decifer, and yet we keep on coming up with even greater sound? What's the point when you can't hear the difference?

Posted by Stewart McSporran (Member # 128) on January 06, 2008, 08:41 PM:

I attended a demonstration of Blu Ray HD projection the other week. I have to say I was very impressed. You could walk right up to the screen and not see any pixelation.

I'm tempted to get one, but the media choice seems limited to modern films; plus the upscaling of standard DVDs on the demo rig was very poor. I don't know if that was the fault of the player or projector, but I won't be parting with the best part of £2K until I've found something that can beat my four year old projector for standard DVDs!

Stewart

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 06, 2008, 08:41 PM:

My son and I were watching the latest bond Casino Royale on Saturday 8 feet wide on our Video projector, a modest 3/4 year old office job and the picture from that standard dvd transfer was unbelievable, never even had 16mm get near so for me theres really no need for anything better.
The recent king kong also looks awesome and like has been said there is loads of older stuff is going to look absolutely no better at all on HD so why bother.
I personally find that much older so so stuff looks better 8 feet wide on a video projector than it does on a TV as they sort of enhance or clear them up a bit if you will.
If dvd keeps on storming ahead like it is doing HD TV etc will blow HD-DVD away almost with standard DVD still being the cheap and great choice if you want to keep a film, I can`t see DVD going bye bye for 10-20 years
We have the 21 dvd Laurel and Hardy set that can now be had for £50 posted or possibly less now and they are wonderful and again projected at 8 feet wide probably look better than on a TV too. Also I see 300 which only came out in october is on standard dvd available for £3.99 delivered and I just can`t see how HD-DVD can ever compete against odds like that.
Blue Ray is fantastic but dvd is still great.
Best Mark.

Posted by Stewart McSporran (Member # 128) on January 06, 2008, 09:02 PM:

DVD is great provided the source material is.

I picked up the 4 film St Trinian's set last week and we watched the first one on the projector. I was very annoyed to see an obvious video transfer. If I'd paid more than £10 then I'd want my money back.

On the other hand the remastered Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes films look terrific. I've got two on 16mm and if I'm being honest these DVDs are better.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 06, 2008, 09:21 PM:

Hi Stewart which Rathbone set is that please, I think there are at least 2 out with them all. Also can you remember what VP you saw blasting BR out ?? did you get the make.?
We have the 1933 King Kong too on dvd and that is fabulous projected but I agreee nothing worse than buying a dvd to find they have just bunged an old VHS master on. Apparently a few of the first blue ray discs were made from shabby transfers, probably something from a standard dvd sourse just tarted up a bit but there was an out cry so looks like they stopped doing it. But just shows for much older stuff a standard dvd is more than enough and all they want to do is sell you stuff with the least effort or cost or value to you they can get away with often.
I thought on the great L+H set that as they put the colour ones on why on earth use the 1982 ish naff computer colourisations or whenever as they would look 300% better if re-done now, I think one or two have been re-done recently and look much better though we watch in B+W anyway.
Best Mark.

Posted by Stewart McSporran (Member # 128) on January 06, 2008, 11:58 PM:

Mark,

The Rathbone set is "Sherlock Holmes - The Definitive Collection (Digitally Remastered)". It's on Amazon UK here: Amazon Link

The projector I'm still using is the Sanyo PLV-Z1 which I got four years ago. Its only faults, in comparison to modern machines, is a slightly less than ideal black level and some screen door effects, although not really obvious at normal viewing distances.

I'm dithering about just getting the Z5 which I understand greatly improves the above, but is still 1/4 HD as Sanyo calls it. It's available on the web for under £600. However, since I'll be buying it through my company - I need a "presentation" [Roll Eyes]

machine - it's tempting to go to HD.

Unfortunately the local dealers don't carry LCD machines and DLP gives me a headache. I think my persistence of vision is slightly screwed - when scenes pan on films I don't see smooth motion, I see a series of jerky images, even (especially) at the cinema!

Stewart

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 07, 2008, 07:23 AM:

There are a number of poor quality standard dvd'd out there. Elstree Hill is a company to avoid as are a few others (i cant remember). But you will get the same with Blu-Ray as discs may differ in quality. When you attend one of these HD demo's they are using specially selected source material as they are there to truimph Hi Def.

The reason The L+H havent been redone is all down to money, the same reason VHS masters may be used for some old films. The companies know that old B/W films do no sell that well so they cant be bothered in spending more.

Graham S

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 07, 2008, 08:21 AM:

Sad, really, that apart from the 'known' titles like Casablanca and such, that older B/W titles get the brushoff when it comes to HD reissues.
The one exception I can think of is the Criterion Collection, with its HiDef-mastered regular DVDs of restored classics. I am sure they are ready for the HD jump; their stuff is, 99% of the time, fabulous-looking.

Best,
Claus.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 07, 2008, 10:20 AM:

I agree, Criterion is magnificent. I'm lookinf forward to getting that Orson Welles film, "Mr. Arkaddin" (a.k.a. Confidential Reporter), as I've heard that it looks stunning.

I'm really looking forward to his last classic being restored ...

"Chimes at Midnight"

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 07, 2008, 11:21 AM:

Its also a shame that some older B/W titles which are less well known you get the movie and thats it, no trailer nothing extra. Im sure there is the odd other footage they could find or a trailer but this all costs money so most companies think its not worth it if not going to be a big seller. I suppose we should be grateful that a number of B-movies are released on DVD at all.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 07, 2008, 12:19 PM:

Thanks Stewart, Can`t beat the Rathy ones can you.
We have the revamped The Day the Earth Stood still and that is fantstic, 8 feet wide its very impressive and what a film.
Is there soemwhere you can check ut the criterion titles, sound good.
Best Mark.
PS its a crime that quite a lot of even modern films are not put out with a trailer or even all of the various versions as trailers are soemthing quite special really.
Does anyone have the 1 or 2 disc version of 300 dies it have the trailer on please.
Thanks Mark.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on January 07, 2008, 03:36 PM:

Chaps,
I have the good fortune to own Blu-ray and HD-DVD players as well as a 1080p HD projector. I use a 7 foot screen and I love the picture quality. I'm being given the chance to see movies like 'The Adventures of Robin Hood' in HD and it looks superb - the three strip Technicolor leaps off the screen. It's like watching a very good 35mm print.
'The Searchers' as you know was shot originally in Vistavision and the HD disc makes the most of this. '2001- A Space Oddysey' looks fantastic.

Now, I already own around 500 standard definition DVDs, which can be projected using the same equipment. The player and/or projector upscales the DVD to achieve close to HD quality.
While it looks good, there's still absolutely no doubt that a HD or Bluray disc is of better quality.
You may find it hard to spot the difference on a 42 inch plasma screen, but on a 7 foot projection screen (just like you'd use for film)it's hard not to notice it.
The best HD-DVD I've seen in terms of quality is Peter Jackson's 'King Kong' and the best Blu-ray would probably be 'Casino Royale'. So as with any format, if you have a good 'print' it makes all the difference.
We'd all like just one format, but I can't help feeling sorry for the HD-DVD camp. Their format was fully developed, while Blu-ray is still ironing out it's bugs.
I could have said that I'd hang on to see which format wins, but then I'd have lost out on the pleasure of seeing wonderful quality versions of films that I love.
Whenever I've bought a 16mm print recently, I've been disappointed in the colour/condition/sound. With HD, I'm looking at pristine new transfers which delight me.

So, if you haven't seen it yet, I'd say go along for a demo of Blu-ray with an HD projector. Trust your own eyes and no-one else's.

Alan

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on January 07, 2008, 04:00 PM:

Sorry Mark;There's no trailer on the 300;but the picture is pristine quaily on blu ray.
Paul that news was a shock for all who went HD instead of blu ray.
Guys,to me Bluray will be the winner.It also runs at 24fps just like film itself.
Yes blu ray discs have reg.code on them.I will do more bluray reviews soon.Andy.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 07, 2008, 05:34 PM:

Hi Andy thanks I may go for the region 3 standard 300 dvd then as the trailer is on that and £10 delivered. I need my trailers. And yes please Andy many BR reviews needed.
Best Mark.

Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on January 08, 2008, 07:03 AM:

Graham,

You stated 'Most DVD's you buy nowadays have excellent picture quality in terms of colour, contrast and sharpness and I dont see HD DVD being that much better' .

It's worth knowing that the major studios have been mastering in HD for a fair few years now and the majority of Standard Def DVD's you buy are down-converted from these HD masters.

So the picture grading on your Std Def DVD's (colour, contrast, etc) will be (or should be provided the down conversion is done correctly!) exactly the same as the HD version (Blu-Ray or HDDVD) however the impact will be in the resolution and detail which is quite an improvement and almost '3 dimensional' when you compare the two side-by-side on a large screen.

Rick

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 08, 2008, 01:15 PM:

Im sure when I have HD I will be gobsmacked, but until then Im more than happy with standard DVD. Mabye old films like The wizard of Oz can be improved with a properly done HD transfer, but the current DVD is pretty sharp itself and dosent look like it should be much sharper, But I dont have a video projector or large TV yet. Eventually I will buy HD but Im not worrying about it now. Only time will tell what future HD has and what format will survive. One thing is for sure is that it is not the end as we will have Super HD and then Ultra HD, which makes Super 8 and 16mm film even more remarkable in its lifespan.

Graham S

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on January 08, 2008, 01:51 PM:

Was looking at a Sharp Blu-ray player not a bad price considering I payed a lot more for our first VHS back in the 80s even the early DVD players cost more, no doubt the price will come down further, what did catch my eye was the Panasonic PT-AX200E video projector that was running, looked good and at reasonable price, but just below this projector, and this is where I started drooling was a heavily reduced and new PT-AE1000E [Eek!]

well I was [Smile]

, the salesman was [Smile]

, but my wife wasen't so that was the end of that, [Frown]

however I can see the move to include Blu-ray in the future, oh! the salesman also told me he had the later model I think its the PTAE2000E out the back, very impressive specs on this one and not a bad price either [Big Grin]

There are a few Warner DVDs of old films that are good value what stands out here is that they include a newsreel, a short, and a cartoon of the time, and are on the front of the feature clever stuff from Warner home video, some of the titles are,

Angels With Dirty Faces 1938
The Petrified Forest 1936
Little Caesar 1930

Graham. [Smile]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 08, 2008, 02:23 PM:

These two titles are also in that special category with the cartoons ect. added on :

Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Adventures of Robin hood

the "Robin Hood" one also includes an EXCELLENT documentary from the turner network entitled, "Glorious Technicolor"

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on January 09, 2008, 05:25 AM:

Graham.
My Wiz of Oz in the black & green box is the finest quality DVD in my own collection. We watched on upscale HDMI and its as good as I need it.

Off to see the Wizard now.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on January 09, 2008, 07:08 AM:

upscale HDMI, isnt that a halfway house to proper HD. How does it work and how good is it?

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on January 09, 2008, 11:01 AM:

Guys,Dont forget that both HD machines and Blu ray upscale your std.dvd's.Andy.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2