This is topic Choosing a Video Projector in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 04, 2009, 12:07 PM:
I'm about to take The Plunge. We've decided it would be nice to have a video projector as a supplement to my Super-8 ones, to fill in a lot of gaps as far as content and also be able to show broadcast media on my big screen.
When I look at these, my eyes glaze over: so many choices, so many abbreviations. So what I've decided to do is pick out two er..."machines" and see what people here have to say about them.
I've heard the Panasonic spoken very highly of here, but it's coming in about 30% higher in price than the Epson. Do the differences justify the price?
What say you, Jury?
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 04, 2009, 12:58 PM:
Glad to hear you are about to purchase a video projector - I assure you that you are in for a treat no matter what projector you decide on. After years (or in my case decades!)of having to go through the 'torture' of deciding on what super 8mm films to buy within your budget, video projection with DVD'S is like being a kid in a candy store - so much to choose from at so little price! You will be watching all the hundreds of great movies that have never made it to super 8mm. All of which is not to denigrate super 8mm in any way. Once a 'reel' man always a 'reel' man!
Now as to the choice of a good projector, this depends a lot on your budget. Like everything else in life you get what you pay for and the higher price VP'S usually have better performance (brighter, better contrast). But the nice thing is this - even the budget priced projectors will blow you away in terms of picture quality. Expect bright, really sharp PQ, with great looking color, no matter what PJ you get.
Personally, I like the Panasonic range, for several reasons:
1. They all have 2X zoom lenses, which means you can put the PJ at the back of the room alongside your super 8mm projector. So its out of sight and out of the way. I do not like seeing a PJ hung from the ceiling right over the audience.
2. The Panasonics have large 'lens shift' range. This means that theprojector lens can be moved up and down and sideways (without moving the projector) to accurateley center the picture on the screen. Projectors which do not have lens shift capability are a real pain to align with the screen.
3. Finally, and I think the most important, at least for me, is that Panasonic are the only projectors which have their patented Smooth Screen Technology which TOTALLY eliminates pixel visibility and the dreaded screen door effect. This means that your picture will look almost as good as film, with none of the pixel blocks being visible no matter how close you sit to the screen.
Another decision you have to make is whether to buy and LCD or DLP projector. DLP'S used to have much better contrast than LCD, and LCD used to have much better color saturation than DLP, but this is no longer the case with the two technologies now being very close in terms of PQ. The main disadvantage of DLP is the dreaded 'rainbow effect' caused by the mechanically spinning color wheel inside single chip DLP projectors. It can cause you to see color fringing on fast moving objects, and can also cause headaches and nausea. The vast majority of people do not see it, but if your one of the 5% of the population that do, it can be a real problem.
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 04, 2009, 01:11 PM:
Do Not - I repeat DO NOT buy any video projector without seeing it in action and making sure you like it (or at least getting a referral from someone you completely trust) -- there are huge variations in picture from different projectors - and even projectors that have excellent reviews may not produce a picture that you like.
Video projectors are very different from film projectors -- in the case of film, the print is far more important than the projector (with the exception of the Xenon/non Xenon issue) - with video, the opposite is true - the projector is far more important that the media you are using. The best blu-ray in the world will still look like crap on a bad projector.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 04, 2009, 01:41 PM:
Therefore this is not exactly the kind of thing I should unwrap as a "surprise" Christmas morning?
Ho!, Ho!, Ohhhhhhhhh No!
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 04, 2009, 09:28 PM:
The above comments are spot on. I would emphasise the Panasonic's ability to produce a cinematic picture without the dreaded 'screen door effect'. This is super important to us film collectors raised on 8 and 16. My vote would be for the Panasonic.
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 05, 2009, 12:11 AM:
The Panny will give you a some what superior picture over the Epson, although a touch softer due to the smooth screen. The Epson will give you superior after sales service, and better reliability.
Steve, check out the AVforum here http://www.avforums.com/forums/index.php It will give you a better idea with owner threads and reviews.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 05, 2009, 07:05 AM:
I`m not sure about the USA Epson version but the UK ones look nicer than the panasonic I think.
I think I would be swayed by the Epson 3 year free cover, I think they even cover the bulb now too.
I don`t think you would see the screen door on an epson with the number of pixels, and as people metioned thay are a tad sharper.
Buy I`d alwasy go LCD myself as not too sure about the rainbow effect on dlp machines and odd people can succumb to it and on the sam thought I wonder whats going on in your brain even if you can`t see it.
LCD is more like watching a film frame sat in front of a light source.
Anyway happy viewing`s, you will love it whatever but your family will really love it as it opens up so much more that they can then enjoy, not just what films you have bought.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 05, 2009, 08:06 AM:
The "rainbow effect" is actually of concern to me because a member of my family has a seizure disorder. It's very well controlled but we're a little leery of things like strobe lights. Even if it just gives her a headache, where's the joy in that?
This is something I didn't have any idea about: glad I asked!
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 05, 2009, 10:09 AM:
If a member of your family suffers from seizure disorder then you absolutely must stay clear of a DLP projector. I am not hear to bash DLP, but the fact is that a single chip DLP projector uses a spinning color wheel to produce the color (something like the early 1900's Kinemacolor system which had a spinning red and green filter in front of the projector) and this can really upset some people. Even if it does not induce a seizure it can induce headaches and nausea in a small percentage of the population. Personally, I would not want to take the chance that someone in my audience was experiencing discomfort, even if I was not. Now, all that I have said does not apply to 3-chip DLP projectors, but these are extremely expensive , $15k and up. LCD projectors use 3 separate red, blue, and green panels, and have no such prolem. The main advantage of DLP over LCD is that the pixel gaps are a bit smaller, so you get a little less screen door effect. DLP contrast used to be better than LCD, but this is no longer the case.
Both technologies have their own reliability issues. The failure mode for LCD projectors is usually long term heat damage of the polarizers ( my Panny is now 5 years old and is still running great, so lifetime clearly depends on how many hours a day you run the projector) The failure mode for single chip DLP projectors seems to be mainly the failure of the color wheel bearings, which are running at about 20,000 rpm, and the resultant shattering of the color wheel.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 05, 2009, 11:38 AM:
One thing that concerns me with the Epson is the very limited Zoom (1:1.2). To me this means I'll often have to choose either the image size or the projector location, but have to take whatever I get as far as the other non-choice. The Panasonic scores here, and some of that extra money is beginning to make a little sense.
One has no speaker, the other has 1W. To me this is shaping up to a lot of gear (projector+media player+amplifier+speakers) to haul around if I ever take my show on the road (which I do a couple of times a year). One of the joys of a small gauge film projector is it's all in the same box: you grab the handle and you go!
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 05, 2009, 12:11 PM:
Steve, looking at the Epson and Panasonic, I know this is probably a LOT more than you were planning to spend, but I cannot praise my JVC DLA-HD350 enough. Granted £3500 is a whole lot of serious money, but I have bought several projectors from various well known brands over the years and many have proved a disappointment, making me wish I'd saved my money for something better. About a year ago I paid nearly £2000 for a DLP which turned into a nightmare...broke 3 times in a few months . It is now a £2000 doorstop! I kid you not...
Honestly, unless you start moving into £10,000 upwards, the JVC's are, in my opinion, really the best out there. They just don't have competition, except, as pointed out in another thread they are only 1000 lumens which can be an issue if your screen is really big! But performance is the most filmic I have seen from a sub-£10,000 projector. At least arrange a demo !
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 05, 2009, 12:38 PM:
I hear what you are saying Rob, but £3500 (something around $5,600 American) would be a hard sell with the Wife.
I can only push the "I let you have granite counter tops when plywood would have cost one tenth as much!" argument so far!
I think we are looking to stay in the more entry level neighborhood.
I'll avoid a demo for the same reason I'll never test drive a Porsche...because then I'll want one!
(Ignorance is bliss!)
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 05, 2009, 01:21 PM:
LOL! Fair enough, Steve...you should have heard the conversation when I brought home the JVC!!!
In fairness, although my better half has always enjoyed the old home cinema, she never really gets too excited about it all...until we watched "Mamma Mia" on the JVC. Half way through she announces, "...you could actually reach out and touch those actors!"
I thought she was taking the ****! I said, "there's no need to be sarcastic!"
But she actually meant it! So I got way with spending our savings this time!!!
Anyway, best of luck with your choice of VP and enjoy!!!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 05, 2009, 01:40 PM:
Yeah..I lost the right to extravagance a long time ago.
After I heard one of her ideas for buying something I said
"Oooh!, and we can take the money we have left over and buy an aircraft carrier! You know, for weekends!"
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 06, 2009, 06:35 AM:
May i also ask some questions on this subject please? I am a total novice on this subject.
I agree with what i read on "what you pay is what you get". I certainly wouldnt want to jump into a bugdet price only to find when the bulg goes its either no longer made or costs £300-£400.
However, i afford a top price machine so in your opinions what is a good starting price for a reasonable DV projector?
I to, will be running this along side my 8 and 16mm so i'm not looking to replace super 8, therefore a good reasonable quality would be ideal, after all, DVD is so sharpe everytime i'm sure most DVs would give a reasonable image in an average living oom.
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 06, 2009, 08:00 AM:
Tom, You say you can afford a top price machine.. are you the same Tom Photiou that announced on here recently that you were getting married?
Posted by peter booth (Member # 242) on November 06, 2009, 09:16 AM:
I recently bought the Panasonic PT-AX200E VP LCD from soundandvisiononline.com who are based in Farnworth,Bolton.It came in brand new at £869 which I thought a great price as it was over a thousand at most dealers.It gives a great performance and while it is High Definition,(not full HD)gives a stunning picture on Blu-Ray.
A lot of the £3/£500 projectors are not for home cinema use mainly corporate,and a lot are 4x3 only.
Best wishes for your big day,
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 06, 2009, 10:27 AM:
Paul, have you had 5 years trouble free, I seem to remember you had to have a repair done at some stage. Mine is now working again, but for how long I donít know as still running tests.
It is pretty obvious that the more you spend the better you get, thatís life. These projectors are not perfect, the polarising filters donít stay absolutely lined up and therefore colour problems can and do appear. Any LCD at the budget end of the market will not be able to produce a 100% clear white light from corner to corner. And if they do at the start, they wonít after 100-200 hours.
I started my association with VP trying to get a real film like look. That was a frustrating and wasteful time, tweaking and tweaking the things until I ran of tweaks. You wonít get it. But you do get a great picture from DVD and far more so from blu-ray, and if you learn to love both differently you will enjoy your VP no matter what one you choose. I recommend the Panasonic and also the Epson. The Epson is cheaper than the Panny and if you donít have a blu-ray player the Epson would allow you to buy a blu-ray player within or near enough the budget for getting the Panny. Knowing what I know now I would be happy with the Epson, but £1800 would get me a good DLP and I would chance the rainbow, as I here that this effect even on the cheaper ones are a lot better now. Although if like Paul your planning large audiences then maybe not.
Isnít it funny the way there is now a gathering passion growing for VP. A few years ago and this would have been ignored.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 06, 2009, 11:07 AM:
The trouble I'm having with these things is it's true: most people regard these as a business machine and I'm not seeing them featured in consumer electronics stores.
The only time I ever see a roll-up screen near a home is at the curb waiting for the garbage to be picked up, so much that I've even stopped "rescuing" them!
The standard for big screen video is an immense television, and these are easy to see demonstrated at the store, if I see a VP at all it's inside a display case.
This is kind up curious as projected video can be on an even bigger screen and when the thing's not in use the screen can go away and not leave a blank screen begging to be turned on and disrupt human interaction. ("It's a birthday party! Why are they all watching TV?!")
I'm hoping to buy at B&H in Manhattan, and I'm wondering if they'll demonstrate them for me.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 06, 2009, 11:27 AM:
You have a good memory! Yes, you are absolutely right, a couple of years ago I did have to send my Panny AE700 off for repair to the Panasonic Service Center in Lexington Kentucky. All of a sudden the projector would not power up, I thought it was the lamp, but it turned out to be the power supply. Panasonic installed a new power supply upgrade at no cost (I was still a couple of months inside the 2 year extended warranty that I had purchased) and the VP has operated flawlessly ever since. It still has the original lamp, which is now getting close to 3000 hours, so I will be replacing that pretty soon. The only issue I have is that the picture is dimmer than it was, due no doubt to the ageing lamp. But color, contrast, and sharpness look as good as when new so, at this time, I have no problem at all with the polarizers.
Bottom line for me Chris, is that I feel the Panny has served me very well for 5 years now, which is a good lifetime for a VP. Next year, I am hoping to get the new 1080p Panny AE4000, which I gather is a huge jump in PQ from my little AE700.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 06, 2009, 12:57 PM:
Steve, you're right that a lot of VP's are sold as commercial boxes for conferences and the like, but there is a whole market out there for home cinema. It's actually the new "trendy" thing, here in the UK at least ! Of course, most premier league footballers weren't alive when super 8 was about, so they think spending a fortune on a home cinema is a "new" thing!!!
You need to go to specialist dealers. High street electrical retailers aren't interested in this market. Don't know about the states, but here there are lots of really knowledgeable shops if you know where to look. And that doesn't necessarily mean expensive..."Sevenoaks" for example, or "Practical hi-fi".
Try searching the web for these UK shops and then finding the equivalent where you are. Also look at the web site for UK publication "Home Cinema Choice".
Many moons ago I worked for a "specialist" hi-fi shop and learned then that really good, solid advice is only based upon actually using gear...and that really good retailers actually do care that their customers are buying kit that they are going to be happy with. Also, when things do go wrong, it is essential to have a relationship with a good dealer...something you don't get by buying cheap off the web; good for some things, but not things like a VP.
Over the last year alone, I have learned yet again that being able to return to a good, solid dealer with whom you have a relationship is the only answer when you end up at loggerheads with the manufacturer.
Christopher; DLP and "rainbow"...hasn't improved at all. In some cases it is actually worse. The thing to look for in the spec. is the SPEED of the colour wheel...and this isn't always made obvious. Colour wheels are often quoted as having 5, 6, 7 segments. This only affects colour rendition and is often mis-quoted as diminishing "rainbow". Colour wheel speed determines rainbow. Many expensive single chip machines use 4x speed which, if you're like me and see rainbow is TOTALLY unnacceptable. Some use 6x...certainly rainbow is dimished but then you get into other problems....
PS. Peter, I just re-read your post about "Sound and Vision" and to avoid any potential mis-understanding, would like to clarify that I certainly DO NOT see them as being a "cheap off the web" company. I have a lot of respect for them. But I think you all know that there are plenty "cheap off the web" companies out there
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 06, 2009, 01:12 PM:
Badley worded on my behalf!!! I menat i cant afford a top of the range. Thanks to all though, i am learning and researching.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 06, 2009, 01:14 PM:
Tom, you can get a JVC on 12 months interest free from the right shop...go on, you know you want too...
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 06, 2009, 02:16 PM:
Hi Steve might I suggest you ring a few local AV outlets and see whats on the shelves second hand or ex demo etc.
Many office based machines are also superb for DVD etc.
Are you doing Blu Ray or Just DVD.
I find dvd projected to be superb and far good enough for me.
The sony,s epsons, philips and hitachi LCD machines are very good for video projection and some even have 3 colours in so you can do pretty good 1080i with an XGA machine, thats 2.3 million pixels you simply will not see.
I`d suggest trying to pick up an ex office or school Philips B,Sure 4000 series machine, around 1600 lumens but not too bright as video biased and the picture on these is superb.
Its a 4/3 machine but you can watch 16/9 and also zoom in with different ratio,s and colour adjustemenst etc.
I reckon you would pick an OK one up for around $150 and they also have a really decent zoom lens with good range so you can set the machine back.
You might see one cheap on ebay with a back up etc, the best are the long rectangular ones with the lens on the center front, and they are absolutely silent running as well, Marvelous Machines.
Somthing like that would be a good toe dip into the water etc. Decent DVD blows most 16mm well way even on these philips, they are that good.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 06, 2009, 02:54 PM:
I think what you are saying may be a good way to get into this. I'll look into it.
I'd say the plan for the Moment is DVD, but Blu-Ray somewhere along the line.
It's funny, about a year ago I took my little boy to a Sons of the Desert meeting. The show that night was "Way Out West" and the presentation was using this really ancient video projector (I'm not completely sure, but I think it said "Edison" on the side...) hooked up to a VCR with a VHS somebody had grabbed off of a cable movie channel. I don't think I need to tell anybody it looked horrible.
With that as a reference, anything I wind up with will have to look spectacular!
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 06, 2009, 03:00 PM:
Mark, with the greatest respect, I simply cannot agree.
For example, it is irrelevent how many pixels you have on LCD if one or more of them fails, especially common on cheaper machines, then you just have a persistent blemish on the image...check CAREFULLY before buying. Let's not even get into "dust ingression".
Contrast ratios aside (which means very little), most VP's (especially LCD) will NOT produce anything like decent black levels. This is so important if you want to use them for watching movies.
And as for DVD "blowing away 16mm"? Again, I don't want to get into a row here, but there are so many variables...
With the best print, equipment etc, 16mm will simply dump on DVD. Now this isn't to say that you can't get really good results with DVD, but there are so many factors to consider...
Blu-ray / HD is different...own set of problems and advantages.
Can I just say that this is a great discussion and I don't want to upset anyone...quite the opposite...it's great that we can discuss all this so openly.
I'm sure I'll have some disagreement with my views and be glad to continue...
Posted by John Hermes (Member # 1367) on November 06, 2009, 03:45 PM:
I prefer DLP myself, as I think it looks more "filmlike", after coming over from LCD. I started out with Super 8 film, then to 16mm, then to 35mm, so I have seen a lot of film over the years. My DLP projector has a 6x wheel and have shown DVDs, HD DVDs, and Blu-ray to at least 30 people and no one has ever complained of headaches or other problems. A 6x wheel does cut rainbows way down compared to a 4x. I essentially never see them anymore.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 06, 2009, 03:54 PM:
John, I agree 6x makes a big improvement, but I still see it.
I suppose if you see it, you always will...
Not to say I don't love DLP. It's bigest advantage is response time. No image drag of any kind.
That and sealed optics, so no dust ingression. Texas Instruments now offer 5 year warranties on DLP chip-sets regardless of manufacturer.
3 chip DLP is of course the perfect solution...for £10,000 - £12.000... We can dream!
I loved DLP until I saw D-ILA.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 06, 2009, 04:14 PM:
For £12,000 I'd like it to have four tires and at least four cylinders!
This kind of money really erodes the cheap media idea, but I guess if you can truly afford the machine, it's a "don't care" anyway.
Is there a lot of motion smear with an LCD machine?
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 06, 2009, 04:36 PM:
Hi Rob well maybe I am just lucky with my Philips as it easily blows much 16mm away in the home, and for quite a few reasons.
Also you can actually sit nearer too it and still have great focus etc so can have a larger big screen experiance.
Many of the Office based VP,s now are very well geared towards DVD projection and do a superb job.
On my XGA no screen door at all on a 5-6 feet wide picture sitting 6-10 feet away, and an awesome picture.
These machines and the like are a superb easy way in to the dvd projecting and watching side of things.
I paid £65 delivered for mine with only a few hours watched and have now racked up around 550 hrs myself, though around £125/150 delivered for one as good as that is more the mark.
The chap who sold me mine was into AV and was interested in my cine hobby so wanted to know my thoughts on the B,Sure from the cine point of view so actually sent it to me free, waited to hear my review ( SUPERB !!!!!! ) and then said £65 posted. Very kind and the best £65 I ever spent on the big screen.
Also get a nice budget machine to sneak in to VP, and you then have a handy cheap back up machine once you dive full in or a great one for the kids cartoons etc.
Disney on my VP for instance is awesome but the philips is a great performer.
I have to dissagree reagrding 16mm, good VP beats it and Blu Ray projected 1080p is like 35mm in the home I hear, well I ahve been told its better really.
PS I love my super 8 films, but VP is another thing in itself.
PPS just seen your post Steve on my VP I`ve never seen smear or even jaggies, well not noticed any, I can`t even see edge enhancement though its maybe there sometimes. I think its all down to hitting lucky with a right on but still super affordable machine.
Epson 4/3 office jobs are often very cheap 2nd hand and look good. I mentioned the philips like mine as its got such a good long zoom.
The epson I might go for for 720p in the UK would be the TW680, a lovely looking machine and I believe 3 years cover including the lamp in the UK.
Anyone can knock this and that on various VP`s, but just get one, bung it on and sit back and enjoy the films up there and you won`t ever look back Steve or anyone.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 07, 2009, 04:51 AM:
Hi Mark, I'm glad that in the case of your projector you got yourself a gud 'un!
All I'm trying to point out is that there are a lot of potential pit-falls with VP's to watch out for before comitting any level of hard-earned cash; for all the good ones out there, there are plenty of "duffers".
As for 16mm vs. DVD, lets leave that old chesnut; we'll have to agree to differ and the more time spent discussing it leaves less time for actually watching movies .
Steve, smear isn't an issue on LCD projectors, but the inherent lag of liquid crystal technology (and this includes my beloved LCOS) can produce slightly undesirable effects on fast moving objects. Now this is being HYPER critical and isn't REALLY a problem, but it does exist and all I'm saying is that DLP performs better in this respect, but, in it's single chip form has other issues...nothings perfect . Maybe best not to worry about it...
For me, 3 chip DLP would be the dream because of all the technologies it really, really works the best...but of course it is just far too expensive and unrealistic to consider.
As for really expensive VP's eroding the notion of cheap media, well I don't know...true the discs are relatively cheap, but then most people I guess are taking advantage of the improved quality on TV screens, not VPs, so once you enter the VP market it's a whole different ball game.
You've got to ask yourself what sort of big screen TV you could get yourself these days for £500-£1000. I think you could get a darn good one and (oh dear, I'm gonna be all controvertial here again ) one that picture quality wise, would be far better than a VP at the same cost...albeit with a smaller image.
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 09, 2009, 11:24 PM:
quote:If your talking High def only you may be right Rob. But for DVD and laserdisc the LCD TV would not be able to compete.
You've got to ask yourself what sort of big screen TV you could get yourself these days for £500-£1000. I think you could get a darn good one and (oh dear, I'm gonna be all controvertial here again ) one that picture quality wise, would be far better than a VP at the same cost...albeit with a smaller image.
Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on November 10, 2009, 03:36 AM:
There is one big advantage with a DP over a TV (and this advantage applies to 8mm &16mm too) and that is impact. My son-in-law was boasting about his 50" inch TV and how good it was for sport and film watching...which it is. One day he was in my dedicated film room (OK spare bedroom)and said the picture wasn't much bigger than his TV picture. He was right, we were watching a 1.85 ratio film but then I played the trump card; a 'scope film which I zoomed to almost fill the 7'6" screen. I explained that's the difference, his TV would still only be 50" with any ratio film and he would have those black bars with anything wider than the 16:9 TV format.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 10, 2009, 07:28 AM:
Yes Mal, that's the way to really show off your system - Cinemascope films presented that way (constant image height) puts any flat panel TV in the dust. One is cinema, the other is still TV.
I would say that with a blu ray disc the picture quality is now much better than 16mm and almost as good as 35mm. I am using blu ray with my 720p projector and it looks awesome, and yet I know it will be even better when I upgrade to a new 1080p projector.
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 10, 2009, 11:01 AM:
I was thinking more about the projectors ability to deal with lower resolutions without blocking them like the TV's do. But i also agree with what has been said above. But, if you look at HD on an LCD screen for just pure picture quality, I think there may be a case in saying that it is getter better and has taken over projectors. But i would have thought on more expensive sets in the 2000-3000 pound bracket, rather than the £500 sets.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 10, 2009, 11:36 AM:
Christopher, a friend of mine has just ordered a 42' Panasonic plasma for £700.
Although he intends to use Blu-ray with it, the majority of his vast collection is DVD or standard definition films on a hard-drive recorder.
He chose this TV because he was particulary impressed with the quality from standard definition, which is important to him.
But, yes, you can't beat big projected pictures for sheer impact value.
Posted by Thomas Murin, Jr. (Member # 1745) on November 10, 2009, 10:53 PM:
Add my vote for the Panasonic AX200U. I've had one since early last year and have never been happier. I replaced the bulb last month just 100 hours shy of it's rated life (1800 hrs.) Even then, the old bulb was still providing a pretty good picture. It just got too dim for my tastes.
For the record, the actual difference between 720p and 1080p is very slight. Most people can't tell the difference. I know I can't. I'm very happy with 720p and hope I won't be replacing my AX200 for many years to come.
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 11, 2009, 10:51 AM:
The Plasma sets i here are better at low res, i wonder what the new LED sets are like. Anyone got any info on them?
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 11, 2009, 11:47 AM:
The LED sets are getting very good reviews here in the US. The main advantages of LED over LCD are better contrast, much lower power consumption, and 20,000 plus hour lamp life. LED TV sets are also extremely thin, only 1.0 ins thick. LED home projectors are just around the corner. Imagine that, no need to ever have to replace a $400.00 lamp!
Also in the works are home projectors using laser light sources.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 12, 2009, 01:02 PM:
As long as it projects out of a lens onto a screen I'm for it! 16mm I love but HD video is now tremendous. But keep everything, at some point you won't even see film in a public cinema and be glad to have 8 and 16 at home.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 13, 2009, 02:14 AM:
The first "domestic" DLP video projector to use LED as a light source, and now available, is the Vivitek H9080FD. Sadly, the cost is £11.000 !
Also, light output is rather poor at 800 lumens. The big advantage is no rainbow from it's single chip DLP because it doesn't use a colour wheel. Although the price rather negates that advantage at the moment. Expected life is 20,000 hours.
LCD TVs that uses the full-array LED system do offer much better black level than previous LCD displays. Some sets use edge-lighting LED however and are still advertised under the banner LED. These do not offer the same improvement as full-array displays.
OLED (organic LED) was seen as the potential future of TV, with better imagery than LCD or Plasma. Sony managed to get the XEL-1 11 inch display produced but at a ridiculous price. It did, however, show the potential of the format...then the credit crunch hit and development of new TV technology took a back seat.
It seems that now both Samsung and LG are interested in developing OLED again, with LG set to introduce a 15 inch monitor and Samsung potentially investing massively in the production of screens 30 inches and upwards.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 13, 2009, 11:13 AM:
My thinking on many improvements in contrast ratio and in 200 - even 600hz picture technology is that it serves to make the picture more videoy and less filmy. I have a Loewe 37 inch flatscreen TV and it took quite a bit of settings juggling to get rid of 'video movement'. I mean the actual action of actors and camera moves looked like news video. Out of the box it was set up and THE BLACK SHIELD OF FALWORTH was on which managed to look alarmingly like some kind of hi-def video! Quite an achievement. Turning much of the proprietary processing off helped bring back the film look.
Posted by Richard C Patchett (Member # 974) on November 13, 2009, 11:19 AM:
I have 2 of theses for the wife's Business for her presentation
Great LCD for the money
I can get you a deal on one of these new They list for retail $995.00 US funds
Forum members price $800.00 Plus Mailing
Contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org
Or if you see something else
EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Information
Manufacturer Part # LC-XA20
Production Status Shipping
Release Date NOV 2006
EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Specifications
General Aspect Ratio 4:3 (Native), 5:4, 16:9
Brightness (ANSI Lumens) 2000 ANSI Lumens
Contrast Ratio 400:1
Display Type 0.6" Polysilicon LCD x 3
Resolution (Native / Max) XGA (1024 x 768)
UXGA (1600 x 1200)
Video Compatibility NTSC, PAL, SECAM, NTSC 4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N, HDTV (480i/p, 575i/p, 720p, 1035i, 1080i)
Projection Lens F = 1.7
f = 20.06mm
Number of Colors 16.7 Million Colors
Size Dimensions (WxHxD) 3.15in. x 13.00in. x 9.33in.
(8cm x 33.02cm x 23.7cm)
Weight 6.4 lbs. (2.9 kg)
Connectivity Inputs 1 x D-Sub 15 Pin
1 x Composite RCA
1 x Ministereo
1 x Audio RCA (L/R)
Control 1 x RS232
Operation Power Supply 100 ~ 240 V / 50 ~ 60 Hz
Power Consumption 250W (Standard)
Approvals UL, cUL, IEC
Audible Noise 25 dB
Operating Temperature 41įF ~ 95įF (5įC ~ 35įC)
Projection Lens Lamp Type 200W UHP
Lamp Life 3000 hrs
Projection Mode Front, Rear, Ceiling
Projection Screen Size (Diagonal) 40in. ~ 300in. (101.6cm ~ 762cm)
Throw Distance 4.27ft. ~ 32.48ft. (1.3m ~ 9.9m)
Throw Ratio 1.62:1
Vertical Keystone Correction +/- 20 Degrees
Brightness Uniformity 85%
Other Dot Clock 140 MHz
H-Sync Range 15 ~ 100 kHz
V-Sync Range 50 ~ 100 Hz
In The Box Items Quick Start Guide
Owner's Manual on CD-ROM
AC Power Cord
VGA type Computer Input Cable (HD15 ~ HD15)
Wireless Remote Control & Batteries (AA x 2)
Warranty Projector 3 Year Warranty
Lamp 90 Day Warranty
EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Accessories
Description MfPN MSRP
0183-5004 Case 0183-5004 $49.00
Richard C Patchett
RC's Classic Collections On 16mm
Parts & Service Forum members price $800.00 Plus Mailing
Something often misunderstood for video projectors is the relation of the distance of the screen from the projector and the width horizontal of the screen. 16mm film proctors using a 2-inch lens have a picture width of 4'-8" at the screen. With a 1-inch lens the screen image is 9'-4". A video projector having a throw ratio of 1.62 will be at 75-inches from the screen with 120-inch width. You might want to consider if this is acceptable for your outdoor movie showings. If you like your equipment further from the screen the projector may need to have more lumens and a variable focal length lens (throw ratio) for best screen image in your situation.
Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 14, 2009, 12:27 AM:
It looks like LED technology will eventually be the way to go, although some more work on them is required before i would spend that sought of dough. I like the increase in lens shift on the Vivitek, DLP machines usually have almost a fixed lens compared to LCD's, another reason that would keep me to LCD's at this moment in time.
When TV's become as thin as our roll up screens and as big, what will happen then?
Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on November 17, 2009, 07:11 AM:
Now,being one for a bargain,I have got news of older technology as regards video projection.
The machine is a fully reconditioned and engineer serviced BarcoData 701 crt projector and has factory spares backup at not too silly prices.The projector is affordable and would suit me for that area of home cinema.Now I have seen these things operating and they really shine.So,fellow enthusiasts,its very affordable and spotlessly clean and internally dust free.What would you do??
Forgerrit guys-just bought an Hitachi single lens LCD instead.
[ November 17, 2009, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Barry Johnson ]
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 17, 2009, 08:15 AM:
With my engineer hat on I make one observation... if it is a 3 CRT machine be sure you see it demonstrated on the screen size AND throw you will use, preferably on the actual screen. This is because the three CRTs need to be converged and focussed for a particular set-up. If there is a rake angle involved, that needs to be allowed for too. If your set-up is variable, you will need explicit instructions in making adjustments, or colour mus-registration will be a problem.
Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on November 17, 2009, 01:04 PM:
Martin: Right on the button there mate.The convergence anomalies with these super machines is what changed my mind ultimately.So thats why I have plumed for the LCD single lens Hitachi with a new lamp even!
Thank you for your input.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 17, 2009, 05:34 PM:
I thought you'd like to know I've made a decision here:
Epson, Panasonic, Epson, Panasonic, Epson, Panasonic...
and the Winner is:
(Old dogs, new tricks, I guess!)
Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on November 18, 2009, 06:53 AM:
Well Steve,if you put it like that...........currently in use in my film room are:Toei Talkie R8sound,B&H606H R8silent,Ampro New Educational (new!!!!??)16mm sound,B&H TQIII 16mm mag/opt and a common or garden Elmo ST1200HDmag/opt super8.I reckon thatqualifies me as a genuine "Film" user.
I realised one day thay VP would arrive to add yet another dimension,hence the Hitachi.
All I have to do now is put that larger screen up...........
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 18, 2009, 07:28 AM:
Can't the CRTs be realigned once in place?
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 18, 2009, 08:10 AM:
Yes, Damien, that was the point I was making...first to ensure that the range of adjustment was enough for the envisaged usage and then to ensure that a user would be fully capable of making the adjustments (which are quite complex and need to follow strict sequences) when it is in the position of use. AND to be able to readjust for a totally different set of circumstances if it were required to use it somewhere else. The adjustments in question are not only mechanical but also electronic in nature.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 20, 2009, 03:09 PM:
Set up was very easy on the Panasonic AE2000E LCD. Out of the box it was amazing, all it really NEEDED was a couple of notches down on the colour. Great and very film-like. Later I tweaked a bit more with the colour temperature and made a preset for black and white with the colour right down. But really, it was SO good just turned on.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 20, 2009, 05:35 PM:
I`ve just been offered a very nice Philips XGA LCD machine from a good chap and a new bulb fitted as well £125 + post a super starter machine if anyone in the UK is interested. Decent zoom etc.Cracking 2.3 million pixels you won`t see etc.
I think the bulb would cost at least that usually.
I`d have bought it myself as back up if not skint.
Drop me a line if interested.
Posted by Thomas Murin, Jr. (Member # 1745) on November 20, 2009, 10:08 PM:
Steven, the Panasonic AX200U needed NO adjustments out of the box! I ran it through Digital Video Essentials and it passed every test with flying colors! It's one incredible machine.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 27, 2009, 08:29 AM:
Just a note here to say the new NORTH BY NORTHWEST Blu-ray is STAGGERING in terms of picture quality: natural colour and incredible definition with the very finest grain and very 'filmy' looking on my equipment and settings. The sound is a little thin and harsh as it was only optical but clean for dialogue. A great film that hasn't dated and you really get to see how well Hitch used the VistaVision frame especially in the 'crop duster' scenes, making Cary Grant a tiny figure in a huge landscape. My mini-review...
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