8mm Forum: A great re-recording!

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on June 08, 2004, 10:20 AM:

Just finished re-recording Derann's stunning print of "Meet Me in St.Louis" from the newly released DVD. The DVD sound track is fantastic, having been enhanced to 5.1 stereo (how do they do this- taking an old 1944 optical mono track and turning it into a flawless stereo surround track?). Anyway the results on the super 8 stripe re-recording are stunning, with rich full fidelity stereo music adding a whole new presence to the film - a quantum leap from the original muddy mono track. I'm sure John and Keith would acheieve something even better with their DVD sync-pulse technique, but I am delighted with what I have managed to do. Garland never looked or sounded so good -the Trolly song (in stereo) is a knockout! [Smile]

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on June 08, 2004, 11:23 AM:

Great news! There is a company in California called Post Haste sound where besides restoration soundtrack work they mainly get mono soundtracks and create elaborate 5.1 Digital Surround Mixes. The process usually consist of finding a stereo music track, merging it with an effects track and panning the sound right, left, over, under! I know..I was going to be an apprentice! [Smile]

Paul, how do you keep sync with your Eumig? I thought it didn't have a speed adjustment?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on June 08, 2004, 01:09 PM:

Alan,
I use my Eumig S938 Stereo or my Eumig 926 GL stereo for re-recording, both of these machines have a high precision variable speed control knob. Both these machines also come equipped with Eumig's very nice outboard sound mixing console design, which makes re-recording operations much easier than on an Elmo GS1200. I record on the Eumig's and play back on the GS1200'S.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 08, 2004, 04:16 PM:

Hi Paul,
Convince me about the Eumig!!!

Kev.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on June 08, 2004, 05:05 PM:

Hi Kev,
Good to see you back on the Forum. Too bad Doug and I did'nt get to meet you at the BFCC.
Well I'm not quite sure exactly what you want convincing about with the Eumig's. I can tell you that the recorded sound quality obtained from both the Eumig 926 and 938 is exceptionally good, with excellent low and high frequency reproduction. As good, if not better than the GS1200.
In terms of ease of recording, I think the side mounted sound console with linear pots on the Eumigs is ergonomically much better than the recording controls on the back of the Elmo, and makes things a lot easier during intense recording sessions.
Of course the Eumigs do NOT have the pulse-synch capability of the GS1200. But they do have a very good mechanical speed adjustment which works very well for fine tweaking the projector speed for "Wild-sync' recording against a TV monitor.
No its not perfect sync, but it's damn close with a little time and care. Well worth the effort.
The GS1200'S ,of course, excel in playback projection, and that's what I use them for.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on June 08, 2004, 06:02 PM:

Paul

You will never persuade Mr Elmo of this! Unless of course you drag over the Eumig to Kev's home at the next BFCC and we run a competition with a panel of non-cine people!

Tony

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on June 09, 2004, 02:26 AM:

Paul, the Chinon SS-1200 also has excellent re-recording capabilities and very accurate speed adjustment. I've recorded loads of features on this and it certainly records better than one of my GS-1200's. However, all machines vary and some GS's are better than others.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 09, 2004, 06:09 AM:

John, does the Chinon run "wild" or do you use additional sync gear?

Reason I ask is that I'm looking for a way of re-recording that doesn't involve the expense of a GS (sorry, but I love my ST!)

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on June 09, 2004, 07:00 AM:

The SS-1200 has a variable speed control. Assuming the machine is in good condition with good belts then it runs at a very steady speed. I've done complete 600ft reels straight through without the need for stopping and re-syncing.

Remember though, all machines vary and another ss-1200 may not be as good. I have one GS-1200 that does terrible recordings so even the venerable GS varies.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 09, 2004, 09:21 AM:

Thanks, John, I see your point.

I've recently been re-recording some trailers on my Goko editor and with a bit of patience the results have been quite amazing.

Unfortunately, it only holds sync for a few minutes, so it's no good for features.

I was hoping to maybe re-record my treasured copy of Raiders of the Lost Ark (my favourite movie, but not presentable to an audience due to wowy sound!) so was looking at other affordable possibilities.

What I really need is an expert to do it for me! Can I be really cheeky and ask if there is any realistic chance that I could possibly persuade you? Please help me rescue my super 8 gem! Money (name your price!), beer, whatever, you name it.....!

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on June 10, 2004, 02:11 AM:

I'll have a go at it for you but you'll have to bring it down and we'll do it together. Manchester to Central London is pretty easy as Russell Square (where I live) is about half a mile from Euston and King's Cross. So no need to use the car and get ripped off for Livingstone's congestion tax (assuming he's still dictating London after today).

There are a couple of things to note. Firstly, I don't have a stereo sound master for this film so I hope you have either the DVD or VHS (and they have to be PAL copies). Secondly, a lot depends on the sound stripe. If it has duff striping anywhere the recorded sound will reflect this. My copy of the Last Crusade had two reels where both main and balance tracks were bad but it came from the first batch of prints and things seem to have improved markedly since those days.

You suggest a day and I'll endeavour to get the time off. Email me at john.clancy@bfcc.biz.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 10, 2004, 03:10 AM:

John, many, many thanks! I shall email you shortly.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on June 13, 2004, 03:17 PM:

Hi all.
I must agree with Paul about the conveniece and effectiveness of using Eumig 926 to re-record features (though I can't say if it's better than Elmo).

My set up to do that, includes a camcorder with the shutter set at 1/1000", pointing the rear (and only) sprocket drum of this machine. This way I create a "stroboscopic" effect which helps me determine if the projector is actually running at 25 fps: if it is, I can see the drum as if it were still in the camcardoer's viewfinder. In addition, the image from the film to be redubbed is screened side by side to that coming from the audio source (be it Stereo HIFI VHS or DVD). All this enables me to achieve excellent sync with any film provided no cuts have been made on the print or on the negative.

Finally it is possible to remove the black knurled knob to select the speed (just pull it out with some strength) and in this way, you can regulate the speed directly on the preset plastic bolt that becomes visibile: by so doing you can perform even a finer correction in speed everytime it's necessary.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on June 13, 2004, 09:29 PM:

I just took out my Goko 8008 and I was curious because of all the posts. Well, the Goko recordings came out much superior to my GS1200 recordings. The GS one was nice, but the Goko recordings came out so much cleaner and with much better stereo seperation. I cleaned all the heads and demagnetized them on the GS so i know they weren't dirty. It has to be the recording mechanism on the Gokos. Wow. Great sound.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on June 14, 2004, 03:03 AM:

All projectors vary Alan. Some GS-1200's produce better recordings than others. It's undoubtedly the same with Goko editors and you've obviously got a good one.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on June 14, 2004, 08:38 AM:

I think all the Goko editors must sound great from what I have heard! Now if I could only find a way to keep sync..... [Frown]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 14, 2004, 08:57 AM:

The re-recordings that I've done with my Goko 8008 are far superior to my Elmos and Bauer. It reproduces a much fuller sound, although Kevin Faulkner's discovery of the GS-1200 capacitor problem might explain the quality difference. I've re-recorded two features and a few shorts with the Goko and I have been able to maintain sync for approx. 10 minutes. I would like to try re-recording with the GS and one of Pedro's brilliant units, but I haven't received a reply from him to any of my e-mails!

Doug

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on June 14, 2004, 12:17 PM:

Hi all!
The Goko RM 8008 shares its sound heads with the Elmo GS 1200: they both are made of sendust alloy, with a skilfully sized gap which makes for excellent performances in recording and playback. Also the circuitry on the Goko is relatively well done. When I play back a recording just made, I can experience no loss at high frequencies which, BTW are never too harsh. I'd also like to point out that it's better to record sound on a machine which has no intermittent movement but a continous one, like an editor.

I think the only drawbacks of this machine as opposed to the Elmo, are:
a) speed is not so constant as one would like when re-recording features
b) sound pressure pads tend to cause noises on films with many splices (glue) if these are too thick. Of course this does not apply to features though.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on June 14, 2004, 02:40 PM:

I'm amazed that the GoKO editor can record sound as good as, or better than, a projector such as the Elmo, Eumig or Bauer. I would have thought that the massive flywheel in the projectors would automatically produce less wow and flutter than the (presumably) small flywheel in an editor. Just goes to show that all is not as it seems!

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 18, 2004, 04:25 PM:

John, sounds like your GS needs a good looking at!
I have an RM8008 Goko editor but I have never been able to get recordings out of it. I have to say that I think it has a problem with the positioning of the heads or maybe worn pressure pads. Yes I can hear you saying " Why hasnt Mr Elmo sorted it" well I have to say that the problem is time. I have been kept more than busy sorting Elmo projectors out especially as word is now getting out in the UK about my skills in repeairing these machines. Still I love it really [Wink]

Yes this capacitor cahnge in the GS1200 makes an incredible differance to the recording quality on the GS and I would think that many of these machines now need this capacitor changed. I also now set the recording current etc (as per the manual) using a scope when I change this capacitor and the recordings on my GS and others I have done is quite remarkable. [Smile]

Ugo have you got the caps I sent you?

Kev.

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