8mm Forum: What do you think about these projectors?

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Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 25, 2005, 11:26 AM:

I've been noticing a number of very interesting super-8 sound projectors on eBay and other venues lately, one of which I would be interested in buying when the opportunity presents itself... and in trying to collect more information on them, I'm just wondering what you folks may be able to contribute (maybe even from first-hand experience). No Elmo stuff here, as that gets more than enough coverage around here [Big Grin]

Bolex SM8 - seems a very high-quality machine, all-metal construction and (most unusual, I think) an 800ft. reel capacity. Wow...

Sankyo Sound-702 and Sankyo Sound-762 - more than anything I wonder what the difference between these two is, though I did find out the 762 only uses a 30V/80W lamp. In light of its other features that seems unusual as I would think the light output would be quite weak and not suitable for "big" projection at all. I could swear this is the same "wanna-be" lamp that some cheap Kodak Ektasound projectors use!

Bauer T60 Royal - a darned good-looking stereo machine with 800ft. reel capacity, 150W lamp (I think), slider controls, powerful amplifier, etc... appears to be a direct forerunner of the T5xx and T6xx models. It must be good, but is it?

Bolex SM80 - looks pretty modern though I can't be certain whether or not it has any sort of digital frame counter and/or programmable sound recording (like the high-end Bauers do). Mostly I'm trying to get specs on this one, though (lamp, lens, sound quality, film transport path).

And last but not least - OK, I lied when I said "no Elmos here," because what I always wanted to know was: what is the main difference between the ST1200 and the GS1200? What makes the GS1200 so much more valuable, other than its ability to sync to an external signal (such as a DVD player to provide 5.1 surround sound etc.)?

Thanks all [Smile]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on January 25, 2005, 05:46 PM:

Jan, Thats a long list of variables there. I will just touch on the ST/GS for you.
The GS was really the last of the Elmo design of machines. It has a 200W lamp instead of the ST's 150W. The GS has stereo record and playback. The ST is a mono machine although stereo sound can be played back on the 2 track ST1200HD via the monitor sockets but it will not record in stereo. Th ST1200 has an AC motor which drievs the complete machine but the GS has 4 DC motors. The main Drive, Fan and 2 take-up motors. Having a DC Main drive motor means that the machine can have fully variable speed contorl and of course the ESS sync system which can contorl the motors speed. This is crucial for dubbing soundtracks from DVD etc. The GS has 15/15 watts of audio output for each channel over the ST's mono 12 watts. I suppose the other thing about the GS is it's a big bugger and built like a tank. I dont think that any other 8mm projector comes near for this except maybe the Beaulieu 708.
The Sankyo range of machines are excellent and well made they were also sold under the Bell & Howell name. The Sankyo 800 is also a stereo machine and does give a very good account of itself. Some say that the Saknyo 1.0 lens is the best you can get but I think that may be a subjective matter. This machine has the same lamp as the ST1200 range which is 150W. The other Sankyo's have the 100W lamp.
The Bauer range of machines are not ones I have studied but Heinz if he reads this I'm sure will tell you all about them.
We all have a favourite machines and get to know the pluss and minuses of those machines and believe me the Elmo GS std or Xenon versions do have the pitfalls.
Hope that helps a bit, Kev.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 25, 2005, 08:02 PM:

Thanks Kev, surprised to hear there are mono versions of the ST1200 floating around, one thing to watch out for if I ever get the chance to pick one up [Smile]

Anyway, hope Heinz (and others) find their way in here as well and show me that this place isn't all just about Elmo projectors, even though I know and appreciate how popular and well-liked they are. In fact, now I'm looking for info on the Chinon Sound 9500 (noticed one on eBay)..... [Big Grin]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on January 26, 2005, 07:07 AM:

Jan, None of the ST1200's were designed for stereo. They are all mono machines. The HD is a twin track machine but still esentially mono. Elmo have preamps for each of the tracks to enable track to track transfer. What some people do is to take the audio from these monitor outputs and feed them into a stereo amp for the playback of stereo film tracks. Thats as far as you can go where stereo is concerned with the ST1200HD (last) model. For true stereo playback and recording it has to be the likes of a GS1200, Sankyo 800 or one of the Bauer machines.

Kev.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on January 26, 2005, 08:28 AM:

Welcome! I have owned the Bauer series projectors. Ultra Quiet, nice and smooth machines.
The Elmo GS1200 feels nicer to me with its piano keys than the ST1200 with its rotary knob. I sold my original GS and then when I got back into the hobby years later I picked up an ST1200. Well I had it for a week and was longing for a GS. Finally got one back and have been a happy camper!
Chinon 9500. Sorry to say but I haven't met a Chinon that I liked. And I have tried many. The problem isn't with the picture, or the features, its the way they treat the film. I started with a Chinon SP330 many years ago. I loved it when it chewed up my films. A lot.
Then I bought a 9500.Top of the line next to the SS1200. 2 of them in fact and they were good for the most part but then again... when I put them in rewind.. crack. Broke the film. On 2 different machines. I would stay away from the Chinons if you can. In fact, event the little baby Elmo, the ST180E was kinder and gentler on film than the Chinons!

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 26, 2005, 09:41 AM:

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 26, 2005, 09:49 AM:

Jan, the Elmo ST1200 and GS1200 are excellent projectors, but you may also wish to consider the Eumig range of projectors. Eumigs are very well designed and solidly built machines and are extremely kind to your films. Of particulr note are the S938 and S940 stereo machines, which while not quite as bright as the Elmo GS1200, have wonderful stereo sound quality and superb sound recording and mixing controls. But stay clear of the 900 thru 929 range, all of which had a poorly conceived coaxial reel arrangement and were very finicky machines. The earlier 800 series machines are also good, particularly the 810 HQS (High Quality Sound) series, but avoid the dual guage (reg 8 + super 8) versions of these machines.

Posted by Mark Norton (Member # 165) on January 26, 2005, 11:11 AM:

My first projector was a Eumig 802D (duel 8mm) I remember it never gave any problems and I had never any problems with it scratching or dammaging film unlike a friend of mine who bought one of the later ones with both spools on the back, steer clear of those!
Sold all of my vairious projectors as I am an Elmo convert now with an ST180 (which are real little work horses) and a GS1200. I also have a Eumig MarkS Standard 8 projector which is a well designed well made machine. Seen some of the Fuji Projectors which look a nice machine, one even has pulse sync like the GS1200.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on January 26, 2005, 11:28 AM:

I have to agree with Mark on the Eumig 810D's. I find them quite nice and I 've never had any scratching. Now , admittedly , I only use it for standard 8mm. I used to have an old 709 D that DID scratch up my Super 8 films, but I've not had that on the 810 or the other Eumig dual that I have, the 824D sonomatic. For my Super 8 projection , I have two Elmo st1200hd's , one older st1200. and in reserve ready to go, an st 800 and a 180e. And from what I've heard about the constant problems the GS1200's seem to have , I'm glad to stick with the St's because I've run them all for years...millions of feet of film and never had any problem except to replace the belts. The mechanical construction is more reliable day in and day out.... yes, it's not as bright, doesn't have sync ...but at least you not always wondering what new bug the GS is going to develop next. I bought one of the St1200hd's brand new in the mid seventies and it is still working beautifully.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on January 27, 2005, 07:52 AM:

New Bug? Explain yourself man. [Wink]

Kev.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 28, 2005, 10:29 PM:

LOL @ Kev, I kinda saw that one coming after Gary's comment about the GS1200 "bugs." [Big Grin]

Actually, it seems to me the Elmo GS800 is held in considerably lesser regard than the GS1200, I'm wondering why that is? Only difference that I'm aware of is, of course, the 800ft. reel capacity... some hints, maybe?

As for Chinon projectors chewing up film, that's a bit of a surprise since my Chinon SP-330MV is extremely good to all my films, and I find that it's quite well designed - even when threading or hitting the loop restorer it's still easy on the film because the pressure plate slightly lifts off the gate at the same time the loops are forced "back into shape," which isn't something you can say of many projectors... impressive! However, because of the lacking sound quality, I'm thinking of reselling my Chinon sometime soon.

I've definitely been drooling over the Eumig S938 and S940, I forgot to mention them in my original post [Smile]

And no worries about me going with the coaxial reel arrangement either, I'd rather have a stake driven through my heart than have to bother with one of those. [Roll Eyes]

Last but not least... I do have a new dream machine as of tonight... the Braun Visacustic 2000. (Although I wouldn't diss the 1000, either.) Gawd, I'm in love with it. [Smile]

It seems to be an incredibly rare machine, though, as only Wittner-Kinotechnik is even offering it for sale at the moment, at a somewhat steep price of 700 euros. [Eek!]

I've also had an eye on the Beaulieu 708EL stereo but kinda gave up on the idea of it after hearing about how finicky a machine it really is, and that despite of its awesome performance, it can break down quite a lot. Who was it again that commented on the capstan wheel transport going haywire when the lamp for the optical loop sensor burned out? *shudder*

EDIT: Forgot to ask, but: has anyone ever been to http://www.super8film.at or even bought something from there, and would you consider this a decent place to buy a projector from? Nothing against Phil's excellent website http://www.8mm16mmfilmscollectibles.com mind you, but I'm trying to hang on to my money here [Cool]

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on January 29, 2005, 12:03 AM:

The Beaulieu 708 is indeed quite delicate and a very nice machine to look at. The only real advantage over the GS1200 is the 2200ft reel capacity. That's not much compared to the Elmo, which offers a brighter, more stable image and a much more sophisticated sound system (better play/rec in stereo, optical sound...)
Ah... The Eumig 810. I used to own one of these and I miss it dearly. Very reliable, gentle on films...

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 29, 2005, 01:45 PM:

...and how about this beauty from France!
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=79345&item=3870360265&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 29, 2005, 02:43 PM:

[Eek!]

Mon dieu, c'est magnifique!!

Actually I know practically nothing about Heurtier machines so I can't quite get past their, um, clunky appearance. *blush* Paul, care to enlighten me? [Smile]

EDIT: Aaand yet another "I almost forgot" question: how much of an advantage do projectors offer that have the pressure plate on the lamp side rather than the lens side (thus keeping the emulsion side of the film in focus even with varying thickness of the film)? Since it's such a rare feature, apparently only found in the Beaulieu 708EL and Braun's Visacustic machines, I'm thinking it's not all that much of a difference unless you were to edit scenes from different releases of a movie together, like some of you like doing... [Confused]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 29, 2005, 07:07 PM:

Jan, I would think that when you are using extremely fast f1.0 projection lenses, where the depth of field is miniscule, that having the fixed portion of the gate on the lens side would be a real advantage. Otherwise, any variations in film thickness are going to necessitate a focus adjustment. All 8mm cameras are designed with the fixed portion of the gate on the lens side, and you would think the same criteria would apply to projectors - apparently not. Although my wonderful little Bolex 18-5 Std 8mm projector is built this way, none of my super 8 sound projectors are. It would be interesting to determine the thickness variation on say a typical 400ft printed reel of film, and compare this with the Elmo f1.0 projector lens depth of focus, to determine the magnitude of the problem.
The Braun Visacoustic sound fascinating- any links to specs and photos of this machine?

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 30, 2005, 01:10 AM:

Good points there, Paul, though you make it sound like the whole thing becomes a non-issue with "lesser" lenses like, say, a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenovar 1.2. Which just might be the case, but who knows? [Confused]

Here's what I was able to find about the Visacustic 2000: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/driveapples/visacustic2000.html

For a translation, just copy/paste the whole text into http://babelfish.altavista.com/ [Smile]

Posted by Ugo Grassi (Member # 139) on January 30, 2005, 10:29 AM:

I hope this translation is better than that from altavista or google...

Here a truly particular projector: we are speaking about the Braun Visacustic 2000, one of the most expensive sonorous projectors (this is sure for the foreign market, see the stratospheric price from Wittner-Kinotechnik). We have to consider the target was conceived: to be the complement to the cinema cameras Braun-Nizo, the top of the Super8 cinema cameras. This projector has a lot of accessories, sync. circuits, adapters, etc. The machine was able to play in slave to a recorder, following an impulse sound from one of the tracks.

We agree: this is a Mr. Projector! it has characteristics more than satisfactory: Schneider lens 1,1 (of series), high class electronic components for an audio truly very clear, recording and reading stereo, digital frame counter, two sprockets, 15v. 15o w. lamp, capacity coils 240 meters, many possibilities of synchronization through a dedicated external unit. The film can be paraded from the proj. in any moment. During the projection the machine is behaved very well: silent, delicate with the films. Stable and audio image much clean one, between the best ones than I never saw. The pressur plate is metallic, like that one from Elmo.
(...) follow...

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 30, 2005, 02:10 PM:

Very good translation indeed, Ugo, thanks [Smile]

I also like how this machine actually has selectable speeds of 16 2/3, 18, 24 and 25 frames/sec (presumably quartz-controlled, unless you're using an external sync source of course)... from what I gather, this also helps audio tracks that were recorded separately during filming with Braun Nizo cameras stay in sync with the film - though it certainly is useful for DIY telecine with PAL video equipment as well.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 30, 2005, 04:22 PM:

The Braun Visacoustic sure seems like a fabulous machine, how come we never hear about it?
The more I think about Jan's comment on the rear sprung pressure pad, the better I like it. Seems to me that Elmo, Eumig, et al, should have designed their film gates this way. Think about it, a gate which is fixed on the lens side( and therefore sprung on the lamp side) eliminates all focus variation problems associated with, a) film thickness variation , b) stripe thickness variation, c) thickness variation between main and balance stripe, resulting in a linear focus gradiant from picture left to picture right d) vertical focus variation caused by the fixed portion of the film gate not being perpendicular to the lens axis.
Sounds like the rear sprung gate design is the only way to go. So how come everyone else (including the Elmo GS1200) ended up with a front sprung gate design?

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on January 30, 2005, 05:25 PM:

Thats a very good question. I have to say that I could never understand why no other manufactures went for the rear sprung gate. I can only think that in Elmo's case they just scaled down their 16mm design to super 8. Just think of a GS Xenon with a rear sprung gate and f1.0 lens! now that would have been something else [Smile]

I dont use the f1.0 lens because I dont like the shift in focus between film stocks etc. [Frown]

Kev

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on January 30, 2005, 09:21 PM:

It's a conspiracy, I'm tellin' you!

And we're 30 years late uncovering it [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 30, 2005, 09:26 PM:

Well, mark one up to Beaulieu and Braun, somebody at those companies really knew what they were doing!

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