8mm Forum: Grease Re-Recording..Success! Kind of...

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Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 30, 2005, 02:02 AM:

I have gone and used Pedro's sync box, set it for 25 fps, played Grease Region 2 PAL DVD on my Powerbook G4, and put each on the first frame. Taped the 2 Rec Selector switch on the GS1200's with scotch tape in the down position, put the machine in play/pause,then the DVD player in pause, then at the same time took off the pause button on each machine and voila! Perfect sync for the entire reel! 600fters! So it can be done here in the USA. Pretty much perfect synce the first try each and every reel. Now the kind of..
Some of the reels on the Grease do not have very good soundstripe.
Reel 1 and 2 are decent. 3,4, 5, 6, 7 are good for the most part but kind of fluttery in other spots.
I know it isn't the machine as I have some great recordings done with old K40 Sound film that I used to check the recording status. However, even with the semi-intermittant sound its still 100% better in quality!
And the picture quality side by side is SO much better on Super 8 than the picture from the DVD. The DVD is ok but the Super 8 looks like technicolor. It truly is a gorgeous print! Here is a picture of my professional set up. NO laughter please! [Smile]

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on April 30, 2005, 03:07 AM:

Alan

Well done! Isn't it satisfying when it all comes together like that? Pedros box really is an excellant piece of kit. Funnily enough it was Grease that I used to check out the box and the theory of pulse syncing DVD to super 8.

You say yours is on 600ft reels? Mine is the Derann release on 400ft reels so maybe a different lab? I managed to edit mine on to 2 x 1200ft reels, each of which will now stay in sync with the DVD from start to finish. Trouble is that setting up the second reel to start in sync is a little more tricky than the first.

With the first I simply set the GS on ESS with the # 3 from the initial countdown showing on the screen and start the GS with the Pedro box at the same moment as I press play on the DVD and et voila!

Great fun isn't it [Big Grin]

Mike

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 30, 2005, 08:05 AM:

Congratulations Alan! I also re-recorded my scope print of Grease, a couple of years ago, doing it the hard way- using manually adjusted speed control on my Eumig 938 stereo. It took me 8 hours to do the whole feature, but it was well worth the effort as I now have stunning stereo sound throughout the length of the movie, as opposed to the rather muddy mono track as supplied by Derann. Yes, the print quality of the Derann scope print is truly outstanding, and I agree with you that it is much better than the DVD. [Smile]

The addition of the stereo track makes this a real knockout super 8 movie. Stereo sound adds so much to the impact of super 8. Lets hope "Master and Commander" is as good a print as Grease!

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on April 30, 2005, 08:49 AM:

Nice one Alan. Its great when it all works out Ok. I'm talks with pedro at the moment about this problem of NTSC sync and he may now have an answer but it will mean new circuitry and a higher price for the box. I'll keep every one informed as we go along.

Kev.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 30, 2005, 10:08 AM:

NTSC box? That would be great! Please keep me informed! The only real problem is that now I need to find Region 2 UK disks for my re-recordings. Sigh.
But it really is a stunning improvement over the regular recorded sound.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on April 30, 2005, 11:43 AM:

Nice job, Alan! Pedro, put me down for one when you start selling your NTSC model.

Doug

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on April 30, 2005, 12:13 PM:

Meanwhile, I'm going about it the low-tech way - just had the brilliant(?) idea of somehow attaching the frame counter that goes with my Elmo 912 editor to the ST1200HD projector... and using it for frame-exact recording starts and stops. [Big Grin]

(Heck, I can't even record in stereo! I have a ways to go, yet!)

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 30, 2005, 06:24 PM:

I would also be most interested in procuring an NTSC version of Pedro's GS1200 SYNC BOX.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on April 30, 2005, 07:54 PM:

If the speed variation of a GS-1200 is 2fps + or -(the center being 25fps), then how could it be locked into an NTSC speed of 29.970 fps? You can slow the GS down to 23fps or speed it up to 27fps. I guess you could tweek the circuit board pot to go faster(if the specs allow 29.970fps), but I wouldn't want to go that route. That potentiometer is very fragile. [Smile]

Kev, help me out on this. [Confused]

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on April 30, 2005, 09:50 PM:

quote:
If the speed variation of a GS-1200 is 2fps + or -(the center being 25fps), then how could it be locked into an NTSC speed of 29.970 fps?

While ntsc picture is 29.97, the film speed is 23.97 and then a 3-2 repeat is used to build up the field rate to the faster video scan rate. So the trick is to derive the 23.97 from the 29.97 with a 5/4 divide circuit which is exactly the way we did synch motors at 1800 to 1440 shutter shafts. When we dub film the picture and tracks lock at 23.97 but the video projector on the dubbing stage is displaying 29.97.

Complicated but the computers keep track of it all.

John

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on April 30, 2005, 10:27 PM:

John is right on the money. [Smile]

Now I know, too, where the GS1200 speed quote on the other forum thread came from, the one about the international PAL/NTSC DVD player (the quote follows a post made by me, so it looks confusing) [Razz]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on April 30, 2005, 11:15 PM:

Wow, and just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water! [Eek!]

Jan, you and John have enlightened me on fps pertaining to video and film. Then theoretically I could use Pedro's crystal sync with NTSC. Right? [Confused]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on May 01, 2005, 12:16 AM:

You could, if you do it with that PAL/NTSC DVD player you mentioned over on that other thread of yours (putting out a PAL signal from an NTSC disc). [Smile]

Otherwise - from what I've gathered - no. (If I just said something terribly wrong, guys, feel free to clobber me.) [Big Grin]

Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on May 01, 2005, 07:26 AM:

Guys,

It's quite simple really!!

Just FORGET the 'NTSC' video frame rate and refer to the 'NTSC' FILM TRANSFER FRAME RATE which = 23.976 frames per second.

The Pedro 25/24/18etc frames per second sync pulse unit works with 'PAL' film transfers because the 'PAL' film transfer frame rate is EXACTLY 25 frames per second. However it doesn't work with 'NTSC' because the 'NTSC' film frame transfer rate is NOT exactly 24 frames per second, as has been outlined before.

I understand from Kevin that Pedro is to (hopefully) produce a sync unit that will supply frame pulses to the GS1200 at a rate of 23.976 pulses per second, in theory locking the GS to the 'NTSC' film transfer frame rate. This is great news for me as I'd like to pulse sync JURASSIC PARK to the 525 ('NTSC') DVD, which unlike the 625 ('PAL') DVD has DTS audio!!!

Hope this helps you to understand this 'black' art!

Rick.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on May 01, 2005, 11:17 AM:

Well said, Rick, spot on [Smile]

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on May 01, 2005, 11:21 AM:

You can count me in as a buyer of an NTSC version of Pedro's GS1200 SYNC BOX.
Darn, now I have to hunt for another GS1200:)

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on May 01, 2005, 04:05 PM:

oh...Mike...my mistake, they are on 400ft reels!
Yes, the difference in sound is like going from a muddy, hissy 8 track to full on CD quality sound. Its hard to imagine the sound possible from the little mag tracks.
I owe Mr. Wilton for inspiring me to attempt the sound transfer.
When I was in England attending the BFCC (what a great time! Great memories..I would love to go again but I have to save..the dollar is worth .50 pence!) we swung around to Mr. Wilton's for a very gracious dinner and stories abound. And also for a look at his home cinema. Both of them! And when he played Fantasia I thought he had it hooked up to his DVD. No..the incredible sound was coming from the mag tracks. Awesome. I think im hooked..again!

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on May 03, 2005, 02:33 AM:

That's pretty much what happened to me about 15 years ago Alan. That Wilton's got a lot to answer for.

Posted by Ricky Daniels (Member # 95) on May 03, 2005, 07:28 AM:

...he most certainly has John!

For me it was a demo of Star Wars at the Wilton Ranch (get it Skywalker Ranch, LOL) locked to a HiFi Vhs. I'd become an established telecine colourist and I found myself getting back into this bootlace stuff again which started it all for me years back (and it was costing a small fortune too!!).

Rick

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on May 03, 2005, 12:44 PM:

Alan

Let me know what R2 DVD's you need and I will lend them to you, no problem. I always keep a backup copy in case I damage one [Wink]

I have just bought a G4 and never thought about using it to transfer sound-thanks

Posted by Michael Clark (Member # 369) on May 03, 2005, 01:53 PM:

Could you do this using the Sankyo Stereo 800 and the speed adjuster inside the back cover?

Mike.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on May 03, 2005, 02:52 PM:

Tony,
That would be great! I am looking for Beauty and the Beast and also the Snowman (you know.. the figures that are hanging around at Clancy's place!). I just purchased Bugsy Malone (with Scott Baio, Jodie Foster). Oh also Flash Gordon! [Smile]

Got any of these?

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on May 03, 2005, 05:17 PM:

Alan

Let's take this off-line....email me your wish list [Wink]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on May 03, 2005, 09:32 PM:

Couldn't you just buy your region-2 DVDs online from amazon.co.uk (instead of amazon.com)? I'm sure they'll have no problem with international shipping [Wink]

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on May 04, 2005, 02:05 AM:

Michael, yes you could use the speed adjuster on the Sankyo. It all depends on how accurate a speed the machine keeps but once set it's possible to run the film in sync' with the video. There will always be some drift but once it goes visibly out of sync' it's time to stop, rewind a bit and commence re-recording in sync'. Takes longer to do a film this way and will obviously wear out the projector eventually.

For region 2 DVD's try www.play.com - cheap, cheap, cheap.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on May 04, 2005, 10:27 AM:

Michael- I have been re-recording on the Sankyo ST-800 and I didnt even know about the speed adjustment capability! Thats good news.

Actually, I've had very good results as far as syncronizing goes. I have actually had a full 400 foot reel stay in sync one time. But I usually have to stop and start 3 or 4 times per 400 foot reels (not including digests, of course).

Nick.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on May 04, 2005, 10:41 AM:

It is possible to drill a couple of small holes in the end panel on a Sankyo Stereo 800, this will enable you to access those little speed adjustment pots with a small screwdriver without taking the back off.

I wouldn't recommend it though as they really are only meant for setting up purposes and I doubt that they would last long if they were used for constant adjustment.

Mike

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