8mm Forum: Polavision

This is topic Polavision in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001374

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 09, 2005, 03:09 PM:

Anybody here on the Forum have any experience with the Polaroid instant movie system? I remember when this first came out in the seventies and a friend of mine brought his into work and caused a sensation, by taking movies of the people in our department and playing them back 3 minutes later! (imagine that , in this day of instant video). This system was regarded as amazing by the press and TV when it was first demonstrated. I was not very impressed though, because you could not play the film through any existing super 8mm projectors, you had to use the polaroid TV style projector. This was because the Polaroid film used an additive system, so the colour was very dense, and you could only get a decent picture on a very small screen. It was a 2 week wonder, my friend was the only person I know who had one, and I think he only used it once. Of course Polaroid invested millions in this system, and they partnered with Eumig , who produced the camera and projector. The financial losses were too great for Eumig to absorb, and this wonderful Austrian company was forced out of buisness by this ill-conceived instant movie system.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 09, 2005, 04:03 PM:

There's a Polovision set [viewer, camera and even two films] for sale at 'Arundel Photographica', it's been there for months and I think the guy only wants a few quid for it, I was tempted to buy it out of curiosity but I've already got far too many curios to store away [Roll Eyes]

.

I didn't realise it was responsible for bringing Eumig down. [Frown]

Mike

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on August 09, 2005, 05:18 PM:

Here is a link

web page

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 29, 2010, 11:39 AM:

Reviving an old thread, I accidentally found this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqFZ1CHg4Qk&feature=related

and someone who got unexposed old cart of Polavison and took a shoot with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2pclBwpeBs&feature=related

I did't follow what was the end of this product, anyone know?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 29, 2010, 11:53 AM:

When I went to business school the Polavision story was used as a a case study of how timing (...like 15 minutes before the first camcorder came out) is everything in business.

If it came out 10 years earlier and had a chance to gain market acceptance and mature technologically, who knows?

Posted by John Davis (Member # 1184) on January 29, 2010, 02:45 PM:

I get the odd batch of Polavision films to transfer and I have to say time has not been kind to them. As has been mentioned before they are very dense and probably due to the built in processing, I think they were never actually processed properly.
The result is the emulsion did not seem to be stabilised and even the best condition films have a combination of blisters and a snow storm.
The whole concept was based on a premise that made the logic behind the Ford Edsell seem perfectly grounded.
Every design decision, aside from the instant aspect, was a poor substitute for the existing super 8 it was meant to rival;
the film was shorter
darker
could not be intercut with any other film
had no sound

In short this was a film eqivalent of a cul-de-sac. It had nowhere to go.

It's only redeeming feature was the film shape was super 8 and therefore the films could be broken out of their proprietary cartridge and mounted on a conventional film reel and watched on a super 8 projector (with a very bright lamp!).

Sadly I suspect within 10 years the films will be totally unwatchable

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 29, 2010, 06:39 PM:

I agree John, the whole Polavision thing was a debacle, which unfortunately resulted in the bankruptcy of Eumig, who were sub contracted by Polaroid to supply all the cameras and TV style projectors. Any one of us could have told their marketing people it was doomed before they even rolled it out, since it could not compare in quality with Kodachrome, and you could not even project it on a normal super 8 projector (way too dense an image - additive color process)

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on January 29, 2010, 08:19 PM:

I think Polavision was way surpassed in bad business judgement by the original RCA Laserdisc .

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on January 29, 2010, 08:50 PM:

It makes me wonder why nobody has done some in-depth interviews with former senior execs, designers or workers from Eumig. There would be some facinating answers to our questions I am sure.

David

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on January 30, 2010, 12:53 PM:

I want to correct myself, I meant to state the RCA original videodisc, that had a playback needle (not laserdisc, although that was no winner, either.). RCA lost many millions on that fiasco.

Posted by Alexander Lechner (Member # 1548) on January 31, 2010, 03:11 AM:

According to Schmalfilm magazine it was not only the Polavision disaster that brought Eumig down. One of the main reasons was their contract with the catalogue store Quelle that sold Eumig products under the name Revue; it is described that photo shop owners got really angry about Eumig as the relabeled Revue products were cheaper. And most of the Revue prices were below the production costs!
Eumig was also doing too little R&D on the video technique; the owners still stuck to Super8 when the hype was long over ...

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on January 31, 2010, 06:08 AM:

Thomas,
You're right about the losses made by RCA, though the main reason it didn't take off (in the UK at least) was that people wouldn't accept the premise that one would want to watch a film more than once! I was a dealer at the time and although the discs were cheaper than VHS prerecorded tapes, and of better picture quality, it simply wouldn't take off. I did a reasonable business renting out machines with discs to University students, and did sell some machines.
I still have a collection of over 200 discs and several machines and I recently transferred over 50 of them to DVD.
A technical point; the "needle" was simply a guide running in a groove, the actual playback element was not in contact with the disc at all. It was effectively one half of a capacitor, with the disc as the other half.

Martin

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 17, 2011, 04:34 AM:

Just digging up this older thread as I was one of the crazy’s who purchased the whole outfit in the late 70’s. For my use at that time it was ideal as at our cine club we wanted to shoot some test shots for our film making and see the results in minutes. My kit was purchased from our local Dixons photo store along with a very limited supply of film cartridges as I seem to remember you had to leave your name and number for a call back when they actually got hold of stock.

In use it was very simple to load the cine camera, then once exposed you popped the cartridge into the player which rewound the film and once processing had been completed as if by magic it would play the movie. I seem to remember you needed a decent amount of light to film in and if you removed the film from the cartridge to project on a super 8 projector you found it a very dim picture indeed. I still have a player so time permitting will post a little video of it on here as I will also be interested to see it running again.

TV advert www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqFZ1CHg4Qk
TV advert 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJZpqZ05BnI

[ August 24, 2013, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Lee Mannering ]

Posted by John Davis (Member # 1184) on February 17, 2011, 10:05 AM:

Lee,
your films must be leading a charmed life because I have seen a lot of Polavision over the years, all suffering from an emulsion blistering to various degrees.
The film shown on a conventional projector is very dark and I suspect in these more litigious times Polaroid would have been sued off the market when this image blistering started to appear.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 17, 2011, 10:22 AM:

Hi John. Some of the telecine we have handled here of Polavision has confirmed the little cartridges of film do not like heat, so if they have been badly stored in the loft for instance they sure do suffer. Knowing the limitations of the system at least many will have family records on it perhaps being just a bit more accessible than the early video formats of the 70’s.
[Wink]

Posted by Juergen Lossau (Member # 359) on February 17, 2011, 02:14 PM:

Hi Lee,

great film about Polavision. I would love to embed your film on www.schmalfilm.de but you disabled this function on YouTube. I tried to mail you to ask for permission but you disabled this function, too. So, this is my only chance to get into contact with you. Let me know if you would allow it. My e-mail: redaktion(..at..)schmalfilm.biz

Juergen

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 17, 2011, 03:01 PM:

The Polavision debacle is similar in many ways to the earlier Pathescope 9.5mm Duplex film fiasco of the 1950's. You have to think that if the marketing people had really known their stuff neither of these incredibly expensive R&D projects would have ever seen the light of day. Like I said earlier, if the marketing people had spent some time talking with people like us, the users of cine films, we could have saved them not only a whole bunch of money, but in both case their actual companie's! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Bryan Chernick (Member # 1998) on February 17, 2011, 03:13 PM:

Polaroid has a new instant film camera:

Polaroid 300

The pictures are tiny, is this another bad idea?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 17, 2011, 06:02 PM:

I've heard that Polavision was the personal quest of Dr. Land and his marketing people actually told him it was a turkey. I remember a quote from one of them that even if they'd taken the home movie market entirely it only represented about 2% of the total photography market and still wouldn't be worth the time and money they put into Polavision.

Much like Henry Ford in his day Land didn't have to listen to them. Henry Ford built Model Ts years after people stopped wanting them, Land built an inferior home movie system that was obsolete before it was designed.

That's often the problem when a company is led by a successful entrepreneur: sooner or later he'll head down the wrong road and not be willing to listen to the kids riding in the back.

"How can I be WRONG?"

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on February 17, 2011, 10:28 PM:

What may be missing in the story today was the incredible hype and anticipation of this instant movie system. Super 8 gurus like Lenny Lipton were very much looking forward to this and so was I. What came out was another thing. I remember rushing over to the local big camera store that had them first. When I saw the system and how it worked, I passed. Especially due to the limitations that were not divulged as I remember until the units were actually in stores... and it was not cheap!

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on February 17, 2011, 10:45 PM:

Great posts, and what a story.

Lee, the film you posted looks (rather marvelously) like a cross between 8mm and a silent movie from about 1905. As John Davis points out, the terribly uneven images surely must have come from the poorly distributed "instant" developer.

It was film that wanted to be video....

Claus.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 18, 2011, 10:08 AM:

Very unfortunate of course that Polaroid took Eumig down with them. Up to that point Eumig had been a prospering Company.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 18, 2011, 03:21 PM:

One thing is certain.. Eumig were in a great deal of financial trouble long before Polavision.

Good to see everyone interested on the system so much so I am digging out more footage and will also reveal the inside on the machine..

Juergen. I am working in my spare time on a more in depth video clip so will forward details of that one when its complete. Might as well do the job right.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 18, 2011, 04:28 PM:

David's mention of Lenny Lipton reminded me of his review in Super-8 Filmaker. For reference purposes, here it is from the July/August 1977 issue:

Doug

Posted by John Davis (Member # 1184) on February 18, 2011, 04:32 PM:

I think Eumig were in a similar position as a lot of European manufacturers at the time. Faced with the burgeoning home video market they failed miserably to anticipate how quickly the punters would adopt video and desert cine. Even the likes of Bauer didn't keep up with the mass market and, if my memory serves me right, pushed out a badged video camera.

If you look around now the only recognisable camcorder manufacturer from the cine heydays is Canon. And other brands such as Panasonic and JVC have managed to reinvent themselves as purveyors of 'movie' cameras.

Eumig being a giant manufacturer had a lot further to fall.

Added:

Doug, great post. On the strength of this article I'm even more surprised that full scale production got the nod!

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 18, 2011, 07:00 PM:

Thanks for posting that most interesting article Doug. I wonder how many tens of million dollars Polaroid sunk into Polavision. They must have known almost right after its launch that it was a complete failure. The positives of the instant playback were totally overshadowed by the many negative aspects of the system.

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on February 18, 2011, 11:41 PM:

To me one of the sadder aspects of the loss of Eumig was that their last few S-8mm projectors (except for the 926 IMHO) were
fabulous but since people were bailing out of film, not many
were made. Would have been nice for us today if they had gone out of business due to making too many unsaleable S-8mm projectors rather than a boat load of, well, boat anchors called Polavision
cameras and projectors...

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 19, 2011, 03:14 AM:

More priceless memories captured on film
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU2neB3YTRM

[ August 24, 2013, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Lee Mannering ]

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 24, 2013, 02:09 PM:

Well its over it must be over 30 years since I last loaded a film in a Polavision cine camera and a project I have been putting off some time is to dig a film out of the fridge and see if we can get a result from a film dated 1983 which is also 30 years old. Yes I know we were pushing our luck a bit but some things you just have to do don’t you. Nearby to us is a steam railway so an ideal moving subject to rattle off a film and also meet with a few friends there. I loaded up the Polavision camera with my oldest dated film although I do have more recent dates but this project was more about does the outfit still fully work more than anything and away we went tripod and all. Having just popped the cassette in the player for it to process itself I eagerly waited under 2 minutes for it to do its stuff. Would the chemicals still be OK 30 years on within the film cassette, would the film still be up to recording images? During filming the camera worked perfectly and also film processing afterwards was fine, but as you would expect the actual film has lost its vitality although it did capture images. The 1977 system is still working even with film 30 years out of date so the next step will be to try more recently dated film on another shoot. I’ll keep Polavision fans posted on filming day 2.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 24, 2013, 02:17 PM:

Just amazing Lee! [Cool]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on August 24, 2013, 04:06 PM:

Lee,

Remaking a certain Lumière Brothers' film?

Doug

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 24, 2013, 04:09 PM:

Lee,

Which museum is this railway?

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 26, 2013, 03:41 AM:

Interesting couple of days filming and was really surprising was that a few people came up to me asking about the camera which one guy asked ‘that is either an old camera or some bang up to date technology’, I suppose you could look at it both ways.

By the end of the second day there were three of us holding Polavision cameras and this particular steam railway was the Ribble at Preston filming at the steam gala weekend. The whole filming thing was extremely nostalgic for me and along time since I last loaded a film into a Pola cine camera although I fairly regularly used the player. Doug hit the nail on the head about the Lumière filming as although the films did process the end results with very aged films are flat looking with limited contrast, but it was still an interesting experiment as we all had lots of fun doing it. Returning home the biggest thrill was reliving the excitement of the film processing itself and the end to a perfect weekend.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 26, 2013, 08:22 AM:

For those not familliar with 1895's films, Doug was refering to one of the very first films ever shoot "L'arrivée d'un train en gare de La Ciotat" (Arrival Of A Train In The La Ciotat Station). [Wink]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 26, 2013, 09:47 AM:

Lee
Are you going to the Ealing Convention in October?
If you are, I am sure that we would all like to see the amazing Polavision camera.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 27, 2013, 12:11 PM:

Polavision is another fascinating part of amateur film making for sure and for those of us who love 8mm it is an important part of cinematic history. Although quite understandable many have had films removed from cassettes and transferred onto dvd to relive family memories. The down side is the original format of presentation is gradually being eroded as exposed films are opened up for some sort of transfer which for me is a great shame. BUT!! There is a small but healthy movement which are preserving Polavision a bit like the 9.5mm baby film collectors around the world which are many.

Sent you PM Maurice.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 27, 2013, 12:57 PM:

I agree with Lee, it's a part of the super 8 history and there is no doubt that if it has had more response from the public it would have been improved. Usually you read negative comments about Polavision but they come from people who didn't use it. It was obviousely not so bad as it is written on many places when you hear what users say about it, even if nobody can deny that Polavision could not compete the classical super 8 that reached high quality when Polavision appeared. And, yes, the 9,5 gauge is alive !

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 27, 2013, 01:13 PM:

Its problem was timing. The main selling point was instant viewing, then right around the same time early consumer video cameras came out and offered instant viewing, and sound, and longer play, and lower cost.

Ten years earlier this could have found a niche market and sustained production, maybe the second generation would have sound or a big screen projector. There was only one generation, so we'll never know.

I'm really surprised how much used gear is available on E-bay. I've never seen Polavison in person anywhere.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 27, 2013, 07:10 PM:

Video was not so cheap at it's beginning (even the tapes) and was heavy. But History shows us that it won on Polavision. More surprising, the video "gauge" which became the most popular was the less quality one. We all know that Betamax and V2000 were better than VHS. You can even turn the V2000 cassettes like audiotapes which means half the room needed for transport and stockage. But whatever, the Betamax, V2000 and VHS survived less than the four main film gauges. How many working videoplayers will there be in 2050 ?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 27, 2013, 07:30 PM:

quote:
How many working videoplayers will there be in 2050 ?

None!

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 28, 2013, 12:30 PM:

Have to confess I purchased the last new set of Video 2000 heads from Philips some years ago at possibly a weak moment although looking back it was providence. Those of us who specialise (as a job) in what are now regarded as obscure video/film formats being transferred to dvd/blu-ray have come to love the old tackle so although I’ll probably retire before your deadline I'm betting my kit will see me out… just about. Getting away from the topic a bit but I do find it fascinating transferring the old video formats and cine as well as you just never know what you will see revealed on the monitor screen. Over the years I’ve seen all sorts of things as you can expect, everything from Princess Diana to baby on the lawn stuff which is lovely to see even more so when you present it to a customer hoping to see something special or perhaps lost love ones. I think looked after vintage video machines will be here for a few years yet..

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 28, 2013, 04:22 PM:

Dominique, after VHS was being phased out you could buy DVD players that were also capable of playing video tapes, now it seems they have been discontinued, at least I haven't seen any in a major retail catalogue I was looking through. I have boxes upon boxes of tapes in my attic and wonder how long my VHS player will last.

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on August 28, 2013, 06:30 PM:

All my local department and electronics stores carry new dvd/vhs combo machines and I would not expect them to cease availability anytime soon, considering the hundreds of millions of vhs tapes in homes today. You can still purchase new LP record players.

[ August 29, 2013, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Dafnides ]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 28, 2013, 08:14 PM:

Wal Mart in the USA currently sells DVD recording/VHS combo machines for about $130.00. Might be worth picking one up.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 29, 2013, 12:37 AM:

Dvd players are currently no longer available in Belgium. An American would not work due to the difference between the television systems. Even in Europe there was a different color system, France, our neighboor used Secam while Belgium uses Pal, so a French videotape played in a Pal video player can only be see in black and white. It is no longer the cas with dvds which, if there were not zoned could be view everywhere in the world. I know that the old tv sets were not compatible between America and Europe but I don't know with the new ones. The vinyl players (and vinyl records) have although made a come back in the shops.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 29, 2013, 04:06 AM:

It was nice to see the return of the 78rpm speed on record players.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 29, 2013, 04:55 AM:

For anyone in the UK who wants to run or record VHS tapes I can recommend the Panasonic Combi available at Argos.
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5339006.htm
I use mine a lot, you can also transfer either way.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 29, 2013, 06:09 AM:

And Toshiba also do a good range of combo machines.

On another tack I have been looking for a Digital VHS (D-VHS)machine for quite a time but so many seem to have faults which I have viewed.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 30, 2013, 10:50 AM:

Just awaiting a Blu-Ray to make itself so have just packed the Polavision away for another 30 years…or perhaps not. Been fun playing with that again and I still find it quite a bit of high tech for 1977. Better get back to the Blu-Ray thing whatever that is……

Long live Polavision!

With 3 of us filming Polavision it could have almost been Cinerama sort of.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 01, 2013, 05:40 PM:

A polavision camera (stated to have been tested) on sale at 25 euros (it's a buy it now price). http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Camera-Polaroid-polavision-Land-/190919860384?pt=FR_JG_Photo_Camescopes_Cameras&hash=item2c73b5e0a0

Posted by Jennifer Cadger (Member # 3959) on November 03, 2013, 01:01 PM:

Hi David,
What films will you showing on the day or is it a well kept secret?
Jen

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on June 03, 2015, 04:47 PM:

A Polavision Equipment kit (for 70 euros) on EBay : http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Polavision-/271881754745?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_71&hash=item3f4d6a5879

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on June 03, 2015, 05:31 PM:

I love hearing about "new" film camera/projector ideas from back at the beginnings of super8mm or any guage.
I had not heard of this system - or maybe I just don't remember it [Smile]

I recently acquired a Videotronic Super8 loop projector in working order with 1 cartridge and that takes a proud position in my collection.
It would be great to own one of these Polarvision setups even if it no longer works, admittedly I do like to have all my projectors in my collection working (even if a little rough!) but I do have a couple of Standard/Regular 8mm projectors that have parts missing like a Dralowid III/8 (German I think) and then a different model that works sort of,and one from the Eastern Block with most of its parts missing, but they do make great display pieces..

This forum is an excellent place to hear about different types of film goodies.

Cheers,
Clinton in New Zealand.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on July 06, 2015, 05:24 PM:

Alex, this thread may interest you :-)

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2