8mm Forum: Can we solely blame to the stock in judging red print?

This is topic Can we solely blame to the stock in judging red print? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 21, 2005, 06:58 PM:

I just received 8mm Elvis "Paradise Hawaiian Style" released by the same company who released MGM series in USA (the clamshell box type). From the edge of the film it was obvious written Eastman. But the quality of the color was good. I could distinguish between blue, yellow, green and red. While the similar release from MGM "Gun of Sebastian" which also on Eastman sock was just red.

So, in judging the color quality, can we solely blame it to the print stock, or also Lab's process was also contributing to it.

How, can I identify that the reel was printed by a particular Lab. I knew, Andreas was expert in identyfing German labs, but my films are mostly US prints.

Or, my lovely Elvis is just waiting to go fade? [Razz]

Thanks for your info,

[ October 03, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Trevor Adams (Member # 42) on September 21, 2005, 09:56 PM:

You can also blame it on the way film is stored [Smile]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 22, 2005, 12:00 AM:

Trevor,
I knew that the way we store the film will have an impact to the color. But I did not see it become the biggest issue.

For example, since I joined this forum, I carefully stored the most beautiful color films (but Eastman) in a cool, dark and dry room. But now, I still noticed some of them are turning red. While, all my home movies (Kodachrome) which were shot since 1980's and never been stored in any carefull way, they are still colorful.

Explanation, please.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 23, 2005, 11:04 AM:

I can't be absolutely sure on this, but i believe there are different varieties of the old Eastman stock. I also have an exceptional feature print (optical sound) of "Romance of a Horsethief" (1970) on Eastman and the color is superb.

Film labs have a lot to do with the color either turning pink or otherwise. From what I understand, to save money, some labs would actually "water down" (so to speak, probably not with water), thier solutions, which would give the film an obvious tendecy towards early fade.

I don't remember where the site is, but there is an excpetional website that describes the different film-stocks and there fade capabilities. There WERE different Eastman stocks during the heyday of super 8. Some have a very good fade quality, even for Eastman, while there are lesser Eastman stocks, those for instance, used on the later (early eighties) releases of Universal 8/Castle 8. I have a print of "Gorky Park" 1983, that already has the "Pinky" quality, still lots of color, but overall pink.

This is especially prevelant on the 82-83 american optical sound super 8 releases, as those producing them on super 8 knew that that these optical sound prints would have a short shelf life, as they would be shown for about a year and then retired, (oh, if only they knew!)

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 05, 2005, 07:39 PM:

Hi guys,
I finally managed to capture some pictures from the above Elvis movie which was printed on the most hated stock, EASTMAN!.

This reel was received from a seller in UK, but definetly printed in US by a company who also released the MGM series.

Look at to the picture, colours are so beautiful! Green, blue, red, yellow, brown (skin) are noticeable.

I took with digital movie camera and set the camera for indoor/light condition.

As other (auto focus) digital cameras, focus is unstable when taking picture in a dark room, so the actual screen is much clearer and sharper than the above pictures

I wish all 8mm movies will be like this.

Cheers,

[ October 08, 2005, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 06, 2005, 08:18 AM:

Great Pics. In 1982 Kodak introduced LPP film stock which is a Low Fade Print stock.
The stock prior to this release was Eastman SP and yes stocks beofr this and early versions of this do fade. In the run up years to the launch of LPP (78 onwards) people have reported that SP doesnt fade or if it does it goes more a Brown colour in the balcks instead of the red wine colour which we asociate with the dreaded Eastman Fade.
I think the reason why some of the later batches of SP seem to be ok is that Kodak were introducing changes to dyes etc into the current stocks prior to the release of LPP in 1982. You will probably find that the last batches of SP produced were the same as the new later LPP stock.
Yes bad processing or storage conditions can make fade much faster on any film and LPP WILL fade given the right conditions. The only films which will NOT fade are Kodachrome and IB Technicolor which used different types of Dye technology over the conventional print films. Hope that helps but in answer to your original question Yes it mainly down to the film stock.
Kev.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 06, 2005, 11:00 AM:

Okay Kev, now you have MY curiosity peaked! What are the conditions under which LPP stock will fade, as I'd hate to have my mint condition Star Wars, Poltergeist or Alien print start to fade!

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on October 07, 2005, 11:33 PM:

Heat and humidity, I would guess.... simple as that. [Cool]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 09, 2005, 12:55 AM:

If I were standing on Kodak's side, can I say this:

"If you are eating an awful steak at a restaurant, don't solely blame it to the farmers (who farm the cows) but look at to the Chef, blame on him!".

Yeah... [Wink]

Osi, you mentioned about "watering down", does it mean "thinnering" the chemical solution? If it does, so, it could be that some Chef (i.e. Lab) had tricked us with cheap process.

Kevin, you are right about Kodak SP, it is confirmed that my Marketing's Raiders of the Lost Ark has a color quality like LPP. I think this was printed in 1981.

Cheers,

[ October 09, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Scott G. Bruce (Member # 384) on October 09, 2005, 05:03 PM:

I have a novice's question. Was watching a WB cartoon last night, the color of which is fine, but for about two seconds in the middle it went completely red. I always presumed that color fade was consistent in a film, especially a short cartoon. Any suggestions as to the cause of this? Thanks, SGB

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on October 09, 2005, 06:22 PM:

Are there splices before and after the red bit? Maybe someone inserted replacement footage. Only other possibility I can think of is that the scene is SUPPOSED to be red (part of the plot) and you just missed it. [Wink]

(Don't you hate it when they simulate poor-quality video and snow/interference on a TV show? One time they did it so well I actually thought our TV really had a problem, until it suddenly cleared up. [Eek!]

)

Posted by Scott G. Bruce (Member # 384) on October 09, 2005, 07:38 PM:

The context didn't seem to warrent a drastic red shift in the cartoon. Will check for splices.

By the way, thank you so much for the speedy delivery of the CHINON, Jan. It arrived on Saturday (very well packaged) and I had the chance to watch some cartoons on it last night (among them the subject of my previous post). I am both very pleased and extremely grateful for your help.

Now back to the mystery of the multi-second red shift...

SGB

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on October 09, 2005, 11:56 PM:

Glad you like it - I was just beginning to wonder if it had made it safely to you or not. [Smile]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on October 10, 2005, 05:05 PM:

Following up Scott's question, you do sometimes find things that are difficult to explain. I uused to have an Eastman feature, that had typical 'warm' look. However, about 20 minutes before the end, it suddenly changed to perfect colour, and this continued to the end. There was no splice at this point, so it was completely baffling.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 10, 2005, 05:12 PM:

Osi, Jans spot on, heat and humidity are killers for Photographic dyes. Keep films cool and dry and let them breathe.

Scott, that could be a bit of light fogging during processing or even exposure.

Thinning down the solutions...no I dont think so. Most labs would use control strips made by Kodak to make sure the chemistry was giving optimum results so they couldnt take short cuts there.
I had heard stories of the final wash being shortened which could leave some of the process chmicals in the film. This might promote fade but at the end of the day Fade was a problem of the dyes and certainly the pre LPP will eventually go red if it hasnt done so by now. The only way that this can be stopped from happening is to deep freeze the film and just think of the nigtmare of thawing a feature out prior to projection and then refreezing it again afterwards.
Sorry folks but Kodak messsed up with that particular dye set they used prior to LPP and that really is all there is to it.

Winbert, your finding rather substantiates the fact that in the later batches of SP Kodak were slipping in improvements before hailing to the world that they now have a Low Fade stock. Note by the way that they never called it a Fade Free stock and given the right conditions I'm sure it would also fade [Frown]

Agfa stock seems to be by far the best for dye stability followed closely by Fuji (of that era) and I have seen some Fuji Disneys here in the UK which have gone a sort of blue/magenta colour. Looks like Fuji may have had problems with Yellow dye fade.

Here's a thought though.....I wonder how many DVD's will be playable in 40yrs time or will the silver refelective layers be oxidised away as has been seen on some Laserdisc, early CDs and even very early dual sided DVD's.

Kev.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 11, 2005, 11:55 AM:

Kev, I already have a couple of DVD's, purchased about 5 years ago, which are totally unplayable today. So I think the concern about the lifetime of DVD's is very real. Film still seems to be the best medium in terms of longevity.

Posted by Scott G. Bruce (Member # 384) on October 11, 2005, 02:48 PM:

Thanks for clearing this up, or at the very least confirming that I'm not nuts. Well, not THAT nuts. SGB

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 11, 2005, 03:37 PM:

Paul, I was going to add to your comments but felt that we could end up fuelling a DVD vs Film debate on the forum so stopped.....Unless that is.....but on the Gen Yak forum. [Wink]

Kev.

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