8mm Forum: Collection fading away

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 30, 2005, 12:01 PM:

Well I'm sure this is nothing new to members of this forum, but is your S8 collection slowly fading away like mine? I find it heartbreaking to see how degraded my MGM, Fox, and Universal digests have become. All turning pink, and all that beautiful saturated color a thing of the past. I would estimate that all these digests will be essentially unviewable in 5 years. The only color films of mine that are not fading are the Derann prints on Agfa stock, which all still look great. Fortunatley, most of my color feature films are on this stock. Too bad we can't all file a class action lawsuit against Eastman Kodak, but they are in dire straits financially, and that would be biting the hand that feeds us. [Frown]

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 30, 2005, 12:33 PM:

Hi Paul --

Eastman stopped manufacturing fading film stock in late 1982. Anything printed after that is on LPP low-fade stock and wont fade. Also Fuji stock after 1975 is generally good, and Fuji stock from 1983 onwards is low-fade like LPP or AGFA.

Also -- films don't fade to "unwatchable" that quickly... I've seen 1950s eastman prints that are completely pink, but still have perfectly fine image density -- just no color...

16mm collectors have been dealing with this for years -- the solution is simple -- make sure you check the stock codes on prints before you buy them - if they're on pre-LPP Eastman, don't buy them if you don't want a print that's going to fade.

In my collection (all 16mm now, got rid of the super 8 stuff) - I think at most 5% of my color prints are not low fade, and that number is constantly shrinking as I upgrade and sell of the Eastman stuff.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 30, 2005, 08:59 PM:

It would be interesting to compile a comprehensive summary of colour Super 8 in relation to distributors, so that we at least know whether their releases MIGHT be low fade.

To comment on a few:
DERANN: In addition to the fairly recent Agfa prints, the Kodak stock used from the start of LPP until about the early 1990s, and the Kodak used in the last 3 years or so is low fade.
MARKETING: A lot of prints have faded but I recently discovered (e.g.) my War of the Worlds 400' on printed on Agfa and is still perfect colour.
UNIVERSAL: If it's not faded, it soon will be!
WALTON: Some prints have faded, but later releases and some others seem to be fine. Fuji, I think.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 30, 2005, 10:29 PM:

I do not know if this matters, but a friend once told me that it is best to keep Eastman prints in a stable enviornment and on plastic reels.

This may keep the prints from fading excessively quickly.

Michael

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on November 30, 2005, 10:48 PM:

Michael, do you mean we should store our prints in a barn on plastic reels? [Big Grin]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 30, 2005, 11:00 PM:

I do not know if this matters, but a friend once told me that it is best to keep Eastman prints in a stable enviornment and on plastic reels.

This may keep the prints from fading excessively quickly.

Michael

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 01, 2005, 07:51 AM:

Hi all,

I belong to the same feelling that one day all my films will be red (but still viewable of course). I never had a chance to have those LPP prints since...they are too far to reach in any terms (location, money, etc).

I always give a remark to all my collections regarding their color status. And yes, it is indeed that the film I saw 5 years ago has faded now. So...what can I do?.

That's why I never bought those non-LPP expensive stuffs...so...no hurt feelings to this existing problem.

Meanwhile, my hobby with 8mm is more to enjoy it's uniqueness rather than the quality. (Sorry guys...) to reach the current films and the cinema quality, I stick to a DLP Projector and DVD.

It is the reason why I am buying (and asking too) the reddish prints as long as they are in incredible price.

cheers,

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 01, 2005, 10:51 AM:

It does help immensely if you store your Eastman prints in a cool environment, especially if it is refridgerated, but just be sure that you put some kind of substance in your "zip-lock bags" (which is what I use) to keep the moisture off.

For instance, I use old selica gel packs. Since I work in retail, I have easy access to these, as many things are shipped with these packets in them, and I just have a big bag of them.

The key is to keep the moisture off of them. If you can do that, and keep them cold. Those Eastman prints will keep thier color for a lot longer. This is common knowledge though.

They will fade inevitably, but you can keep the fade off for a long time.

By the way, it IS still possible to find good color Universal prints. near the end of thier run, they began putting out thier films on Kodak SP, (which holds up incredibly well) and even one on, no kidding agfa stock. It looks like Universal was experimenting on different stocks near the end, as they might have already had some complaints with fading prints. Most of these prints, from what I've seen are the "collectors editions" Of the classic Universal cartoons. These are a passion for me and I always love when I can latch onto these great prints!

There ARE different grades of the old Eastman. For instance I have prints of optical sound super 8 features from the early to mid seventies, and the color is still perfect! I really don't know the "grade numbers" but I have found that the film stock with a higher grade number, seems to last longer. Anybody got any more info on this?

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on December 01, 2005, 11:27 AM:

Wow! Two double postings or is it just my computer? Osi's post is in twos and Michael's also. [Eek!]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 01, 2005, 12:38 PM:

Fading is a subject i mentioned in the FFTC a while ago, it is inevitable but as you say films printed after late 82 should be ok for many years to come.
As far as slowing the proccess down anyone who keeps films in a normal temp room will find there prints fading more quickly.
Idealy films to need to be stored in as cool an enviorment as possible. Its a grim future for those older prints [Frown]

I guess this is where the digital age will come into its own, so cheap, such good picture and sound quality almost every time. That said, i'll keep going with cine till it runs out. My latest edition is T2 feature. I already own the special DVD version with all the extras and added footage but it cant beat the super 8 scope screen for the action. [Wink]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 01, 2005, 05:52 PM:

There have been various answers to this problem over the years and the only answer seems to be to Freeze the reels of film. This can be achieved by wrapping the film in sealed polythene bags complete with a bag of silica crystals and then to get them back out and let them come back to room temp slowly before opening the bags and projecting the film. After the show they then need to be returned to the freezer once more. This procedure is said to stop any further fade or at least slow it down.

Kev.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on December 01, 2005, 06:13 PM:

Wow! Two double postings or is it just my computer? Osi's post is in twos and Michael's also. [Eek!]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 01, 2005, 06:24 PM:

Dan,

I think I said that, -------I think I said that.
I think YOU said that, -------I think YOU said that.

Is it an Echo, or is it D'ja Vue all over again?

I don't know how I got posted 2X??????

Yikes ! The Machines have taken CONTROL. [Eek!]

Michael

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on December 01, 2005, 09:01 PM:

Thanks, Michael, I needed that! Now we're getting somewhere with the true meaning of this post, fading. If you store your films in a refridgerated barn, they will maintain color. Also, if your post replies are in duplicate, there is less chance of them fading away. [Big Grin]

I've read that the best deterrent to fading and VS is to store your films at 50 degrees F/10 degrees C with a humidity of 50%.

Check out this link on the subject at the Library Of Congress US;

http://www.loc.gov/preserv/care/film.html [Wink]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on December 01, 2005, 10:41 PM:

Cripes, I can't be bothered with refrigerating my films... I keep them in a bookcase in the basement which is also the screening room... and while it's relatively cool there all year round, it ain't 50 degrees Fahrenheit, no, sir. [Cool]

But that's fine I suppose... my precious feature films are on low-fade stock, most of my short reels are black-and-white anyway, and if my Universal 8 print of THE JERK ever loses all its color (and it still looks terrific even now) then I'll just have to get it on DVD. [Wink]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 01, 2005, 11:25 PM:

I don't want to be bothered with all those procedures of taking care the films. I put my films on bookshelf at normal room temperature.

You won't belive me fellow, sometimes I check my films in the toilet during my pu-pu times, like reading the newpaper. [Wink]

I never think that one day I am going to be buried with my films [Big Grin]

This just to relief my worryness with the films...for me as long as they can be shown..that's it....but that is more enjoyable...

I once projected a very precious film of friend of mine. Every two minutes I always looked back too check if the projector did not eat or scratched the film. It ended up, I did not enjoy the entire show. Well...I finally only show average films without any worryness. [Razz]

Silly but true...,

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on December 02, 2005, 11:22 AM:

Most Pre 1980 package movies will fade to some degree.

The simple answer is to only collect black and white films in future when buying second hand.

Having said that, Disney 200ft's are excellent colour still.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 02, 2005, 11:44 AM:

"Disney 200ft's are excellent colour still"

Your're lucky, if you're referring to Disney releases! Many of mine have become 'warm', although the more recent Derann releases are fine, of course.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on December 02, 2005, 05:09 PM:

Graham said "Most Pre 1980 package movies will fade to some degree."

I'm not sure what you mean about "package films" -- but there are pre-1980 film stocks that don't fade:

IB Technicolor, Kodachrome, & Cinecolor don't fade at all. And 70s AGFA, and post 75 Fuji tend to hold up quite well.

Interestingly, the only Technicolor prints made in 8mm (I think it was only standard 8) were some Disney shorts in the 1950s. Other than that, there is no Technicolor super 8.

Another oddity -- the optical sound super 8 prints were printed on some mongrel stock, even into the late 80s that DOES fade.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 02, 2005, 10:32 PM:

Mongrel Stock ?????? Yikes ! THROW IT TO THE DOGS ! [Big Grin]

And I don't mean Lassie. [Big Grin]

This is an interesting post. I have a Disney Dwarfs Dilemma in Std 8 color silent, and it went reddish, as well as Walt Disney World - The Magic Kingdom.
Both of these are from 1973-74. Luckily, I was able to get a later printing of this title. Although the color is not perfect, it is better than the silent version.

I also have a Mary Poppins Super Nanny both in silent and sound, that was perfect, and by the following year it was turning a slow muddy brown. - Certainly not: 'Practically Perfect in every way' [Frown]

Alot of this is not only due to the stock, but how well it was printed and processed.

Michael

P.S. The silent version of Super Nanny, has alternate scenes than the sound version.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 03, 2005, 10:21 AM:

I've found that super 8 opticals are mostly printed on either Eastman (from the beginning to at least 1983) and Kodak SP, (from, I believe 81 to the end of opticals, around 89 or 90) It should be noted, however, that not all Eastman stock is equal, as I have perfectly brilliant prints from the early 70's (Romance of a Horsethief, 1971, for instance) that has stunning color. I think that there is a site on the internet that gives the different grades of Eastman and if I'm correct, those different numbers on the Eastman stock, do mean different grades of Eastman.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 03, 2005, 11:12 AM:

Osi,

That is a good point that you had made regarding Eastman.
I believe that some Eastman got out in late '83, and it may be
truly LPP. Check the emulsion, of these prints next to a bonafide
LPP. I think you may find that it is indeed LPP, without the
LPP markings.

Another thing, is to look at Eastman that has turned red.
When you look on the emulsion side, espcially around the title area
you will notice that the surface of the titles also appear to be 'raised'
above the surface of the film.

If there were a grade for this type of Eastman, it definitely would
deserve low marks.

Last but not least, what's up with all the double postings.
It happened several times to me and Osi. Dan Lail found this
amusing too.

I guess the machines are indeed taking over. [Eek!]

But don't trust the computers. Remember the Hal 9000????

'......Dave.... take a stress pill.... Dave????' [Big Grin]

Michael

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 04, 2005, 03:59 AM:

I have posted before (together with the actual screen shots) regarding my Elvis movie which was Eastman print that held the color very well.

This is the thread.

I don't thing this particular Elvis was printed in 1983, since the last commercial 8mm films were sold in 1981-1982, after that video took the position. Optical sound movies and Derann prints were the exception but that for a very specific market.

cheers,

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 04, 2005, 04:36 AM:

I've just checked a couple of my Ken Elvis 400' releases and both still have good colour. I think one is SP.

Maybe the guys at the labs were Elvis fans and took special care!

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on December 04, 2005, 05:21 AM:

Strange to read about what's happening to your Disney 200 footers. I've watched a lot of these over the last few days and all of them still have their rich colours. But I think I remember one of you (probably Andreas) saying that the French edition of Disney films (by Film Office) was among the better, if not the best.

Most of my U8 are fading, slow but sure. It's a pain, indeed, for the 3D films.

But, I was re-recording the soundtrack of Raiders of the lost ark a few days ago (Marketing 400ft) and having both the DVD and the film being screened side by side was quite enjoyable. Colours were the same.

(Now, why is that post in the buy/sell section of the forum?)

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 04, 2005, 11:37 AM:

Jean your right. Looks like Doug and I are slipping. Anyway It's being moved to the 8mm forum right now.

Kev.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on December 05, 2005, 07:11 AM:

I'm not an expert on colour, but most of my Super 8 colour prints before the 80's are turning apart from the disney prints. I havent checked every disney print though.

I have a derann print of "the Thirty Nine steps" (robert powell) which has turned completly pink. six or seven years ago it was perfect colour.

Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on December 05, 2005, 08:19 PM:

I concentrate primarily on collecting black and white films paticularly since it's somewhat depressing to purchase a used color film only for it to be "warm" or turning. Once this happens, I don't see how a DVD of the same film is considered to be inferior.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 06, 2005, 06:14 AM:

Graham, a lot of the early Derann prints have gone that way. I have a copy of the Quatermass Experiment, among others, and this has turned completely pink. These early prints are on Eastman SP which is notorious for its fade. Later prints produced by Derann were on Kodak LPP and these look absoutely smashing still. I had a copy of Carry on Camping from Derann when I first started collecting and this went completely pink so you can imagine my surprise when I picked up a copy which still had great colour. It was on LPP stock. [Smile]

Later Derann releases including thier Disney Features were on Agfa stock which is considered to be one of the most fade resistant stocks available except for the IB Tech and Kodachrome stocks but thats a different story.
If you have a print which is now on the fade or has faded its worth keeping your eyes open for another copy as some of these were again printed before and after the change over to low fade stocks.

Kev.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 06, 2005, 01:09 PM:

Kevin, just out of interest is that "The Quatermass Xperiment" as in the B&W film; if so were these early Derann B&W prints on colour stock? Could you mean the colour "Quatermass & the Pit"?

Sorry, not being picky but I'm keen to know because I have considered buying used copies of both "Quatermass Xperiment" and "Quatermass 2" (the original B&W 4x400ft Derann versions) and just assumed that they would be on B&W stock. Don't fancy watching them in Black & Pink [Wink]

On the subject of fading colour, I think one thing we have to remember is that despite the trials and tribulations of film collecting, when it's good it's damn good! I just watched my fairly new copy of Hammer's "The Reptile" at the weekend (again [Roll Eyes]

) and have to say that the colours on this print (lots of subtle blues and oranges) are beautiful and rendered much better than any video projector I have ever owned or seen [Smile]

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on December 06, 2005, 01:36 PM:

Rob,

My copy of 'The Quatermass Xperiment' is definitely on B&W stock. I don't think I have ever seen a print of this title on color stock.

Actually, from a previous post, 'X, the Unknown' is sold, but Quatermass is still available....

And talking about 'The Reptile'. I would love to see that on the big screen... (Santa...?)

- Rob

Posted by Dimitrios Kremalis (Member # 272) on December 06, 2005, 02:30 PM:

Kevin and Rob,
Do B&W features printed on colour stock turn pink?
I thought they'd retain the black and whites...

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 06, 2005, 04:27 PM:

Your right guys, my mistake it was Quatermass and the pit.
To answer your question about the b/w's on colour stock, Derann have only ever produced this on the Agfa or latter LPP stock so yes they should be ok. If it were on the earlier SP stock then yes that would go pink as well.

Kev.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 06, 2005, 06:10 PM:

In the 1980s, when Derann were re-releasing earlier titles, some b/w films got printed on colour stock. I have a Quatermass II on colour stock, and it looks inferior to b/w prints I've seen. You can't generalise, though; I have a Derann re-release of the 600' of The Wicked Lady on colour stock, and it's excellent, and significantly better than all the original PM Films prints I've seen on b/w stock.

I recall that early in the 1980s, around the time that the Super 8 revival was starting, there was a brief period when b/w prints were amazingly cheap - something like 60% of colour titles. Then the cost of b/w stock suddenly shot up in price and they were never cheaper again.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on December 06, 2005, 06:24 PM:

Old Eastman ages like vintage wine....red wine! [Smile]

I have a film about George Eastman, but nothing is mentioned about the fading type film stock. The film was made in the late 1970s. [Cool]

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on December 08, 2005, 11:37 PM:

Faded colors is one of the reason I mainly collect B+W films (and the fact that I love B+W). I do have a number of color S-8mm digests and a few features and all have reasonably good color still. I find it telling that certain prints of the same movie can be either completely faded, or the color is still good even when both prints were made about the same time (before 1980). I believe that proper storage is the key. I keep all my films in a cool and dry basement with low humidity controlled by a dehumidifier. I recently obtained an MGM print of "Ben Hur" which has incredible color. And yet you can find the same film terribly faded. While I don't harbor any belief I can eliminate fading from my films, I do believe I can effectively slow it down.

David M. Leugers

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